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If a member who is participating 

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remotely experiences technical 

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difficulties , please contact the 

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committee staff for assistance , and 

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they will help you get reconnected When 

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recognized video of remotely attending 

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members participation will be broadcast 

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in the room and via the television 

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Internet feeds . Members participating 

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remotely are asked to mute their 

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microphone when they are not speaking . 

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Doing so will help to ensure the remote 

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technology works properly . Members 

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participating remotely will be 

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recognized normally for asking 

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questions . But if they want to speak 

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in another time , they must seek 

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recognition verbally by a GNU ting 

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their phones . Members should be aware 

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that there is a slight lag of a few 

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seconds between the time you start 

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speaking and the camera shots switching 

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to you to account for this . Please do 

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a quote , preamble , whatever that 

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means unquote in your remarks before 

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you get to your actual question . 

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Members who are participating remotely 

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are reminded to keep the software 

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platforms video function on for the 

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entirety of the time they attend the 

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proceeding . Those members may leave 

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and rejoin the proceedings of the 

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members depart for a short period of 

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time for reasons other than joining a 

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different proceeding they should leave 

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the video function on . If members will 

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be absent for a significant period or 

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depart to join a different proceeding , 

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they should exit the software platform 

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entirely and then rejoin if they return 

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members . Air also advised that I've 

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designated a committee staff member to 

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have necessary you unrecognized members 

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microphones to cancel any inadvertent 

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background noise that may disrupt the 

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proceedings . Members may use the 

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software platforms CHAP feature to 

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communicate with staff regarding 

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technical or logistical support issues . 

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Finally , remotely participating 

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members should see a five minute 

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countdown clock on the software's 

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platform display . But if necessary , I 

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will gently remind members when their 

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time is up . So welcome everyone . 

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Today we will be focusing on 

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racial disparity in the military 

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justice system . We're here to discuss 

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the inequalities and injustices that 

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people of color experience in the 

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military justice system , including 

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those in criminal investigations , 

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courts martial and nonjudicial 

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punishment . The fact that we live in a 

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country with ingrained racial bias in 

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no way excuses or justifies the 

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perpetuation of racism in the United 

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States military . Our service members 

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commit their lives to protect our 

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country . We must commit ourselves to 

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ensure that the military treats service 

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members of color , equally and justly . 

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We will not solve this problem by 

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hiding it or denying it . We will not 

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solve this problem , pretending that it 

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is solely the result of uncontrollable 

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societal problems by pretending that 

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our actions do not contribute to the 

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continuation of injustice by refusing 

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to seek change . Because we are so 

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comfortable and confident in quote the 

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ways things have always been done 

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unquote , the way things have always 

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been done is wrong . The results 

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are repugnant . I hope that all our 

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military leaders in the room are 

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prepared to acknowledge the need for a 

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reckoning and prepared further to 

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institute bold measures to fix the 

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inherent bias in the military justice 

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system in America . G A owes Most 

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recent report found that black service 

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members were more likely to be the 

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subject of recorded investigations and 

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more likely to be tried in general and 

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special courts martial than their white 

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counterparts . Importantly , Joo found 

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that the results were statistically 

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significant . Racial data on 

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nonjudicial punishment was not 

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uniformly collected . Protect our 

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defenders in their investigation found 

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that Black airman were twice as likely 

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to face nonjudicial punishment than 

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white airman . If history provides us 

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some solace , the military led the way 

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in integrating our black service 

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members long before schools or lunch 

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counters were integrated . In 1948 

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President Truman signed Executive Order 

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99 81 directing equal trip treatment 

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for our black service members in the 

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military . Subsequently , the Army , 

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Navy , Air Force and Marine Corps 

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complied . Quote . In 1949 the Air 

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Force issued a quote Bill of Rights for 

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Black Airman and the Navy propose a 

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recruiting program to enlist black 

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sailors . The Marine Corps eliminated 

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its segregated training platoons and 

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various post facilities unquote . 

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But integration did not 

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equal acceptance . Racism and 

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discrimination , both personal and 

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institutional , continued People of 

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color who wish to make a career in our 

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military have face uphill fight , and 

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we've done too little to assess them . 

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72 years after integration , the fight 

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for equality and justice continues . We 

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still struggle to carve out an equal 

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place for people of color struggle to 

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ensure they have the same opportunities 

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to serve in advance in their careers 

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and struggle to ensure them equal 

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justice . We have to look no further 

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than the military leaders in this 

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country , almost exclusively white men . 

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It was heartening to note that General 

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Charles Brown has become the Air Force 

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chief of staff just this week but 72 

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years . I would like to hear the first 

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panel what needs to change , what needs 

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to be done to bring transparency to the 

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system and ensure accountability for 

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every commander who uses the military 

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justice system in a biased and 

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discriminatory manner . For the second 

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panel , I would like to hear how , as 

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the senior military lawyer for each 

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service , you could educate leaders at 

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all levels to recognize bias in the 

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military justice system and what you 

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can do to ensure that justice is 

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dispensed fairly and consistently . 

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Before I introduce our first panel , 

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let me offer ranking member Kelly an 

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opportunity to make his opening remarks . 

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Thank you , Chairwoman Sphere , and 

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thank the witnesses for being here 

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tomorrow . Thank you for holding this 

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hearing at such a fitting time as 

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Americans across this country of all 

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backgrounds are struggling to better 

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understand racial disparity across 

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society at large and detect substantive 

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actions that actually make a difference . 

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This is a fitting time to have this 

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year . I want to welcome both of our 

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panels to the days here . We appreciate 

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your attention and commitment to remedy 

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a very grave problem that , if left 

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unchecked , could stand undermined the 

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readiness of our armed forces . Racial 

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disparity is a very riel societal 

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problem , and across various criminal 

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justice system , we see lopsided rights 

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of arrest , prosecution , incarceration 

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that could should concern every 

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American . This country has struggled 

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to confront and fix that problem for 

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decades , and we continue to do so . 

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But as the events of the last several 

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weeks demonstrate , we have a long way 

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to go as a former district attorney and 

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city prosecutor , I've seen my share of 

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it , and there's something neither I 

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nor any of us can ever shy away from or 

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get complacent about . This is a 

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problem . We all collectively nature , 

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confront it head on . Where do I think 

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we can and must make ? A very real 

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difference is in our military . I've 

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served in the military for over 33 

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years , commander of the battalion and 

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brigade levels , and I know the very 

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real bond our young warriors share , 

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regardless of background . I was very 

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proud two weeks ago when 371 soldiers 

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from Mississippi in the 155 Armored 

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Brigade Combat Team . All volunteers 

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answered the call and deployed to 

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Washington for the civil unrest on 

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three hours notice . They were a very 

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diverse group , with 43% from either 

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African American or minority 

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backgrounds . They trained together . 

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They deployed together , and they did 

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their duty as a team together , which 

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is what makes our military so great . 

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They answered the call , Did that what 

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they were asked to do , and they did it 

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with honor and integrity . They and all 

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service members place their trust in 

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each other and their laters . And that 

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is why our military is so formidable . 

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This isn't contacts that lays a bit of 

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the foundation for what makes it 

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suspected and military justice so 

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troubling . For May , leaders need to 

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do the right thing . Always treat every 

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soldier , sailor , airman and Marine 

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with dignity and respect , and protect 

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that trust that binds warriors together . 

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If racial disparity persists , it 

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always has a negative impact on 

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recruiting readiness and the culture of 

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our military . Understand , that's just 

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statistics the effect . But what we 

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needed to understand is the cause 

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fashion , the right remedies , and we 

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need to do it quickly . Section 54 1 of 

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the F Y 2020 Indy A task the second 

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half in consultation with the services 

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to evaluate the causes of racial , 

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ethnic and gender disparities in the 

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military Justice is , um , and to take 

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steps to remedy disparities . I'm 

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interested in hearing from eye 

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witnesses today on any ideas for 

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rooting out the cause of this problem 

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and potential solutions and where the 

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department is in their evaluation of 

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colleges and remedies . Understand the 

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Air Force's initiating an inspector 

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general investigation with panels of 

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experts and support to explore the 

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problem or holistically . I'm 

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interested in hearing from all the 

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services about any similar or 

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complementary initiatives . I do know 

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that the space force is not here today 

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and is a new force . I think they have 

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a chance to get it right from the start . 

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They can be groundbreaking and ground 

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setting because they start from zero . 

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Madam Chairwoman . I think this is a 

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great start . I look forward to the 

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day's discussion . I want again thank 

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the witness for attending today's 

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hearing and share their collective 

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expertise with us and I yield back . 

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Thank you , Mr Kelly each witness will 

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have the opportunity presented her 

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testimony , and each member will have 

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an opportunity to question the 

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witnesses for five minutes . We 

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respectfully ask the witnesses to 

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summarize their testimony in five 

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minutes . Your written comments and 

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statements will be made part of the 

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hearing record . I ask unanimous 

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consent that non subcommittee members 

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be allowed to participate and ask 

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questions . After all , the 

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subcommittee members have had the 

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opportunity to ask questions without 

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objection so ordered . Let me welcome 

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our first panel . Tired Colonel Don 

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Christiansen , president of Protect Our 

281
00:10:45,802 --> 00:10:48,380
Defenders , and Miss Brenda Farrell , 

282
00:10:48,380 --> 00:10:50,680
director of defense capabilities and 

283
00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,120
management team of the U . S . 

284
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,960
Government Accountability Office . This 

285
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,110
Farrell is joining us . The WebEx 

286
00:10:58,110 --> 00:11:01,970
welcome . All right , let 

287
00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:03,914
us begin with Colonel Christiansen 

288
00:11:07,220 --> 00:11:09,290
to Roman Spear ranking member Kelly 

289
00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:10,961
distinguished members of the 

290
00:11:10,961 --> 00:11:12,683
subcommittee Thank you for the 

291
00:11:12,683 --> 00:11:14,683
opportunity to appear before you to 

292
00:11:14,683 --> 00:11:16,906
examine the issue of racial disparities 

293
00:11:16,906 --> 00:11:19,140
in the military justice system . Like 

294
00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:21,251
our country , the military has a long 

295
00:11:21,251 --> 00:11:23,196
and painful history of mistreating 

296
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,100
racial minorities . Black service 

297
00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:28,322
members have continued to be prosecuted 

298
00:11:28,322 --> 00:11:30,322
and punished at a much greater rate 

299
00:11:30,322 --> 00:11:32,640
than white counterparts . Moreover , 

300
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,860
the suffered promotion rates in our 

301
00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:37,040
vast they suffered . Lower promotion 

302
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,270
rates are vastly underrepresented in 

303
00:11:39,270 --> 00:11:41,381
the Officer corps , especially at the 

304
00:11:41,381 --> 00:11:43,950
general and flag officer ranks , as 

305
00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:46,061
part of Protect Our Defenders ongoing 

306
00:11:46,061 --> 00:11:48,228
efforts to improve the fairness of the 

307
00:11:48,228 --> 00:11:50,580
military justice system . In 2016 we 

308
00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:52,740
found a Siris of Freedom Information 

309
00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:55,870
Act request to each service seeking 10 

310
00:11:55,870 --> 00:11:58,480
years of data on the racial disparities 

311
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,870
in the military justice process . The 

312
00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:03,580
data was provided to us and rates per 

313
00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:05,910
1000 . After eventual receiving the 

314
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:07,960
data , we released a study of our 

315
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,870
finance in June of 2017 that showed 

316
00:12:10,870 --> 00:12:13,410
widespread racial disparities and all 

317
00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:16,100
of the services . We examined a total 

318
00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:18,970
of 32 years of data , and in every 

319
00:12:18,970 --> 00:12:21,390
single year , black service members 

320
00:12:21,390 --> 00:12:23,612
were punished at a significantly higher 

321
00:12:23,612 --> 00:12:26,110
rate than White Service members . Based 

322
00:12:26,110 --> 00:12:28,221
on our findings , Congress mandated a 

323
00:12:28,221 --> 00:12:30,054
Government Accountability office 

324
00:12:30,054 --> 00:12:32,110
revealed the disparities , which was 

325
00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:35,480
completed in March of 2019 . The jail 

326
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,147
also found significant racial 

327
00:12:37,147 --> 00:12:39,460
disparities , but most shockingly , the 

328
00:12:39,460 --> 00:12:42,040
G a O found that none of the services 

329
00:12:42,050 --> 00:12:44,630
had done anything to find the causes or 

330
00:12:44,630 --> 00:12:47,980
solutions for disparities . As part of 

331
00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:51,230
its answer to our 16 2004 requests the 

332
00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:53,470
Air Force stated it had created Quote a 

333
00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:56,000
cross functional team led by diversity 

334
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,740
Inclusion experts in quote to quote , 

335
00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:00,740
collect and analyze the data and 

336
00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:03,400
recommend policy changes process 

337
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,080
modifications are additional study is 

338
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,850
appropriate . In July 2017 we 

339
00:13:09,850 --> 00:13:12,072
founded additional FOI requests seeking 

340
00:13:12,072 --> 00:13:14,183
the identities and the qualifications 

341
00:13:14,183 --> 00:13:16,239
of the team members , as well as the 

342
00:13:16,239 --> 00:13:18,350
team's findings and recommendations . 

343
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,030
In addition to other information , this 

344
00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:23,197
was the start of a grueling three year 

345
00:13:23,197 --> 00:13:25,419
long struggle to force the Air Force to 

346
00:13:25,419 --> 00:13:28,400
meet its FOI obligations . Thankfully , 

347
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,511
we were represented by the L Veterans 

348
00:13:30,511 --> 00:13:32,622
Legal Services Clinic , which enabled 

349
00:13:32,622 --> 00:13:34,567
us to file suit in federal court . 

350
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,100
Despite numerous efforts by the Air 

351
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:38,989
Force to conceal its findings and 

352
00:13:38,989 --> 00:13:41,100
recommendations of the team a federal 

353
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,267
judge eventually ordered the Air Force 

354
00:13:43,267 --> 00:13:45,489
disclosed requested documents under the 

355
00:13:45,489 --> 00:13:47,950
threat of sanctions . The documents we 

356
00:13:47,950 --> 00:13:50,480
receive are startling . The panel and 

357
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,770
fall up study by Air Force Manpower or 

358
00:13:52,780 --> 00:13:55,370
a one found that the racial disparities 

359
00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:57,430
were quote consistent and persistent 

360
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,310
and getting worse . Air Force admitted 

361
00:14:00,310 --> 00:14:01,977
that the numbers work unquote 

362
00:14:01,977 --> 00:14:04,199
concerning and the importance of having 

363
00:14:04,199 --> 00:14:05,990
quote equitable and consistent 

364
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,420
disciplinary processes . The's finance 

365
00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:12,720
were made in 2000 and 16 . And despite 

366
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,520
concluding that the that the Air Force 

367
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,242
quote must clearly address the 

368
00:14:17,242 --> 00:14:20,140
disparity in some way quote unquote , 

369
00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:22,830
the Air Force appeared to act on the 

370
00:14:22,830 --> 00:14:24,997
team's recommendations and address the 

371
00:14:24,997 --> 00:14:28,080
issues . Another disturbing finding 

372
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,136
viral review of the documents is the 

373
00:14:30,136 --> 00:14:32,330
Air Force Legal Community's efforts to 

374
00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:34,730
discredit the data is showing their own 

375
00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:36,560
data showing significant racial 

376
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,100
disparities . Despite the strong 

377
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,710
conclusions of a one , J has attempted 

378
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:44,932
to discredit the importance of the data 

379
00:14:45,190 --> 00:14:47,260
specifically in the background paper 

380
00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:50,990
that Jay created in 2016 . They claimed 

381
00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:53,320
that the disparity between blacks and 

382
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,120
whites that are punish convey result of 

383
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,490
a small number of additional actions . 

384
00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:01,010
Lieutenant General Rock , World Air 

385
00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:03,232
Force judge advocate general reinforces 

386
00:15:03,232 --> 00:15:05,343
message recently in a briefing to the 

387
00:15:05,343 --> 00:15:07,540
Air Force four stars where , he told 

388
00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:09,500
them , Quote even a few additional 

389
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:11,790
disciplinary actions have a far greater 

390
00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:14,100
impact on the report rate for 1000 for 

391
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:16,330
Black your women end quote . Due to 

392
00:15:16,330 --> 00:15:18,840
their smaller number , General Rockwell 

393
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,507
didn't want onto misleadingly 

394
00:15:20,507 --> 00:15:22,740
illustrate this point by using a racial 

395
00:15:22,740 --> 00:15:25,420
of 10 to 1 of white airman to black 

396
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:28,360
German rather than the actual rate of 5 

397
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,480
to 1 . The idea that the decades long 

398
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,750
disparity can be explained by a few 

399
00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:35,694
additional disciplinary actions is 

400
00:15:35,694 --> 00:15:38,400
fault , and J . A needs to stop this 

401
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,000
line of argument . The disparity and 

402
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,860
nonjudicial punishments in Calendar 19 

403
00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:46,460
and Air Force alone represents an 

404
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:49,950
additional 520 Article 15 for Black 

405
00:15:49,950 --> 00:15:52,450
Airman , not an additional few , as 

406
00:15:52,450 --> 00:15:55,270
implied by by the legal world . In 

407
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,400
other words , Black Aerbin received 

408
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,500
approximately 1105 article fifteens 

409
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:02,880
last year . If they were punished at 

410
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,940
the same proportional rate of White 

411
00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:07,117
Airman , they would have only received 

412
00:16:07,117 --> 00:16:10,810
585 . The impact racial disparities 

413
00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:13,530
across all the services in the last 10 

414
00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:15,680
years would easily be in excess of 

415
00:16:15,690 --> 00:16:18,680
10,000 additional extra punishments . 

416
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,910
Met it out against black airmen are 

417
00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:23,760
black service members , not a few 

418
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,740
additional actions . Air Force needs to 

419
00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:29,860
focus on flaming solutions and causes , 

420
00:16:30,030 --> 00:16:32,200
not discrediting the significance of 

421
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,810
its own data . Were you released a 

422
00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:37,240
report in May 26 of this year and it 

423
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,570
had an immediate impact . My credit 

424
00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:41,848
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force , 

425
00:16:41,848 --> 00:16:43,903
right in General Goldfein for acting 

426
00:16:43,903 --> 00:16:46,070
quickly by ordering an investigation . 

427
00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:48,180
But what must not be forgetting for 

428
00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:50,291
gotten is the action initiated by the 

429
00:16:50,291 --> 00:16:52,236
Air Force last week to investigate 

430
00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:54,910
disparities would not have occurred if 

431
00:16:54,910 --> 00:16:56,910
they had been successful in keeping 

432
00:16:56,910 --> 00:16:59,132
this information from being disclosed . 

433
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,680
This hearing today would not have been 

434
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,400
held , but for the fact we were willing 

435
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,410
to force the Air Force to disclose 

436
00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:08,630
damning information that it wished to 

437
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:11,110
keep hidden . This is a reminder of the 

438
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:13,490
importance of transparency and why the 

439
00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:16,300
military must faithfully meet its Floyd 

440
00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,040
obligations . How much further could 

441
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,020
the Air Force be in addressing the 

442
00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:23,076
racial disparities of it had put the 

443
00:17:23,076 --> 00:17:25,730
energy into finding solutions in 2000 

444
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:28,500
and 16 . Rather than seeking to cover 

445
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,860
up its embarrassing failures , I look 

446
00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:33,082
forward to any questions you may have . 

447
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,730
All right now we are going to hear from 

448
00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:03,650
Miss Brenda Farrell from the G , a O 

449
00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:06,780
that has recently provided the 

450
00:18:07,070 --> 00:18:10,990
report This Farrell Thank 

451
00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:13,212
you , Madam Chairwoman , ranking member 

452
00:18:13,212 --> 00:18:15,323
Kelly and members of the subcommittee 

453
00:18:15,323 --> 00:18:17,157
Thank you for the opportunity to 

454
00:18:17,157 --> 00:18:18,712
discuss jails . Findings to 

455
00:18:18,712 --> 00:18:20,323
recommendations about racial 

456
00:18:20,323 --> 00:18:22,323
disparities in the military justice 

457
00:18:22,323 --> 00:18:24,434
system , the Uniform Code of Military 

458
00:18:24,434 --> 00:18:27,330
Justice , the UCMJ A was established to 

459
00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:29,497
provide the statutory framework of the 

460
00:18:29,497 --> 00:18:31,810
military justice system . It contains 

461
00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:33,754
articles that punished traditional 

462
00:18:33,754 --> 00:18:36,310
crimes such as unlawful drug use , an 

463
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:39,120
assault as well as unique military 

464
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,230
offenses , including desertion . Every 

465
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:44,570
active duty service member of the Army , 

466
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:46,691
the Navy , the Marine Corps , the Air 

467
00:18:46,691 --> 00:18:49,010
Force and the Coast Guard are subject 

468
00:18:49,010 --> 00:18:51,270
to the UCMJ A , with more than 

469
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:55,210
258,000 individuals . Discipline 

470
00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:58,430
from fiscal years 2013 through 

471
00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:02,530
2017 . A key principle of the UCMJ 

472
00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:05,530
A is that a fair and just system of 

473
00:19:05,530 --> 00:19:08,220
military law can foster a highly 

474
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:10,810
disciplined force . My statement is 

475
00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:13,850
based on our report issued in May 2019 

476
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,020
on the military services capabilities 

477
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:19,350
to assess racial disparities , among 

478
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:21,280
other matters . Let me briefly 

479
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,530
summarize my written statement . My 

480
00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:25,760
statement is divided into three parts . 

481
00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:28,242
The first part addresses the collection 

482
00:19:28,242 --> 00:19:30,950
of race and ethnic group information in 

483
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:33,530
the military services , investigations , 

484
00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:36,350
Military Justice and Personnel Database 

485
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:39,110
is among our findings . We found that 

486
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:40,950
the services did not collect 

487
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,710
information about race and ethnic group 

488
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,900
and these databases . Thus they were 

489
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:49,270
limited in their ability to identify 

490
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:51,720
disparities , which are instances in 

491
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,950
which , in racial or ethnic group , was 

492
00:19:53,950 --> 00:19:57,270
overrepresented specifically the number 

493
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:59,470
of potential responses for race and 

494
00:19:59,470 --> 00:20:02,020
ethnic group within the 15 databases 

495
00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:05,800
across the services ranges from 5 to 32 

496
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,420
options for race and 2 to 25 options 

497
00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:12,190
for ethnic group , which can complicate 

498
00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:15,400
cross service assessments . To address 

499
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,178
these inconsistencies , we made 

500
00:20:17,178 --> 00:20:19,910
recommendations to do D and DHS , the 

501
00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:22,243
parent organization for the Coast Guard , 

502
00:20:22,243 --> 00:20:25,200
to collect and maintain race and ethnic 

503
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,530
information in the investigative and 

504
00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:30,480
personnel databases using the same 

505
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,030
categories recently established in the 

506
00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:34,980
Uniform standards for the military 

507
00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:38,410
justice databases do . De and DHS 

508
00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:40,577
concurred with these recommendations . 

509
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,658
The second part of my statement 

510
00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:44,590
addresses the extent of racial 

511
00:20:44,590 --> 00:20:46,480
disparities , investigations , 

512
00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:49,300
disciplinary actions and outcomes . 

513
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:52,770
Since the services did not collect race 

514
00:20:52,770 --> 00:20:55,810
and ethnic group data consistently , we 

515
00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:58,920
analyzed actions initiated and recorded 

516
00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:01,370
in each services , investigations , 

517
00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:03,100
military justice and personnel 

518
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,740
databases between the years physical 

519
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:09,680
years 2013 through 2017 . To help 

520
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,850
ensure we had consistent profiles for 

521
00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:14,390
service members , we emerged records 

522
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:17,260
using unique identifiers such as Social 

523
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:19,610
Security numbers that were common among 

524
00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:21,640
the military services database . 

525
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:29,450
We used all of these standards to 

526
00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:31,770
consolidate the various race and ethnic 

527
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:34,410
values . We conducted multi variant 

528
00:21:34,420 --> 00:21:36,620
regression analyses to test the 

529
00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:39,000
association between a service member's 

530
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,500
characteristics such as race and ethnic 

531
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:43,960
group and the odds of military justice 

532
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,290
action . By using this approach with 

533
00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:48,170
available data , we found an 

534
00:21:48,170 --> 00:21:51,220
association of a disparity at stages of 

535
00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:53,450
the military justice process . But 

536
00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:55,740
findings are inconclusive regarding 

537
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:58,700
other stages . For example , we found 

538
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:00,700
the Black service members were more 

539
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:02,922
likely than White Service members to be 

540
00:22:02,922 --> 00:22:05,089
subjects of recorded investigations in 

541
00:22:05,089 --> 00:22:07,089
the military criminal investigative 

542
00:22:07,089 --> 00:22:09,720
databases in all of the services . 

543
00:22:09,820 --> 00:22:11,876
Further , Black Service members were 

544
00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:14,098
more likely than whites service members 

545
00:22:14,098 --> 00:22:16,042
to be tried in general and special 

546
00:22:16,042 --> 00:22:18,264
court martials in the Army , the Navy , 

547
00:22:18,264 --> 00:22:20,264
the Marine Corps and the airports . 

548
00:22:20,264 --> 00:22:22,042
Data for the Coast Guard is not 

549
00:22:22,042 --> 00:22:23,820
available . The last part of my 

550
00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:25,876
statement addresses you d Evaluating 

551
00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,140
the causes of disparities , we found 

552
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:30,029
that duty has not comprehensively 

553
00:22:30,029 --> 00:22:31,770
evaluated the causes of racial 

554
00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:33,770
disparities in the military justice 

555
00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:36,240
system . We recommended that they do so 

556
00:22:36,420 --> 00:22:38,460
to better position them to identify 

557
00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:41,500
actions to address the spirits duty , 

558
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:43,760
concurred Madam chairwoman . In 

559
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,816
conclusion , we believe that for the 

560
00:22:45,816 --> 00:22:47,538
system of military law , to be 

561
00:22:47,538 --> 00:22:50,020
recognized is fair and just by both 

562
00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:52,060
service members and by the American 

563
00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:55,210
public duty and DHS need to take 

564
00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:56,609
actions to implement the 

565
00:22:56,609 --> 00:22:59,660
recommendations in our May 2019 report . 

566
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:02,091
That concludes my statement . I'll be 

567
00:23:02,091 --> 00:23:04,313
pleased to take questions that you were 

568
00:23:04,313 --> 00:23:06,647
the others made 1/2 Cerrell . Thank you . 

569
00:23:06,647 --> 00:23:08,850
You did it with eight seconds to , um 

570
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:13,500
left . So let us start with the Colonel 

571
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,330
Christenson . You know , I was stunned 

572
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:19,630
in reading the report that you found 

573
00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:22,810
that in the Air Force , a black service 

574
00:23:22,810 --> 00:23:26,320
member was 71% more likely 

575
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:30,970
to be charged for nonjudicial 

576
00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:33,190
punishment , I believe for court 

577
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:35,301
martials or non judicial punishment . 

578
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:38,070
And the army , it was 61% in the Navy , 

579
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:40,420
it was 40% more likely . And the Marine 

580
00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:43,340
court was 32% more likely . So clearly 

581
00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:47,270
the Air Force is the grossest outlier . 

582
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,560
Although they all appear tohave 

583
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,150
statistics that there , um , 

584
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:58,420
high degree of bias . It appears to me 

585
00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:01,260
that you had to work very hard to get 

586
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:04,150
that FOIA request . Complied with . How 

587
00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:06,140
much time did it take for you to 

588
00:24:06,150 --> 00:24:08,317
actually get that information from the 

589
00:24:08,317 --> 00:24:10,594
airport ? Well , that's great question . 

590
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,933
So there were two separate FOI requests . 

591
00:24:12,933 --> 00:24:15,044
The 1st 1 where he just asked for the 

592
00:24:15,044 --> 00:24:17,440
raw data we got fairly quickly . Their 

593
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,551
force answered , I believe , within a 

594
00:24:19,551 --> 00:24:21,773
month just raw data . But in that first 

595
00:24:21,773 --> 00:24:23,440
Roy request , they talk about 

596
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,607
establishing this disparity panel that 

597
00:24:25,610 --> 00:24:27,777
I thought a great they're really gonna 

598
00:24:27,777 --> 00:24:29,666
look at this . And when we didn't 

599
00:24:29,666 --> 00:24:31,721
follow up , that was It's been three 

600
00:24:31,721 --> 00:24:33,943
years since we filed that fly request , 

601
00:24:33,943 --> 00:24:35,832
and we still have not got all the 

602
00:24:35,832 --> 00:24:37,721
documents that we requested . For 

603
00:24:37,721 --> 00:24:39,610
example , I have no idea what the 

604
00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:41,666
qualifications of a single person on 

605
00:24:41,666 --> 00:24:44,240
that panel were . Uh and we had to go 

606
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,930
to federal court . We filed suit in 

607
00:24:46,930 --> 00:24:50,810
December of 2017 . We 

608
00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:53,560
did not get a final judgment from the 

609
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,010
judge until March of this year s . So 

610
00:24:57,010 --> 00:24:59,066
it was an onerous task . I mean , we 

611
00:24:59,066 --> 00:25:01,150
were very fortunate that had a great 

612
00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:03,337
group of Yale law students in Yale law 

613
00:25:03,337 --> 00:25:05,392
professors who were willing to fight 

614
00:25:05,392 --> 00:25:07,503
this , But the average person looking 

615
00:25:07,503 --> 00:25:09,614
for FOI evidence cannot get that kind 

616
00:25:09,614 --> 00:25:11,860
of support . And so it was over a year 

617
00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:13,860
and three months before you got the 

618
00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:15,916
data that you request . That end was 

619
00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:18,120
over three years over three years , 

620
00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:20,730
Three years ? Yes , it was a three year 

621
00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:23,550
struggled the first request . We took 

622
00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:25,661
about six months for everybody to get 

623
00:25:25,661 --> 00:25:27,661
the information to us . But when it 

624
00:25:27,661 --> 00:25:29,960
came to the disparity panel , its 

625
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,570
findings and its recommendations , that 

626
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:34,680
is a three year struggle . So after 

627
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,847
your report came out with the stunning 

628
00:25:36,847 --> 00:25:40,740
statistics , when did you hear from the 

629
00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:42,851
Air Force ? I've never heard from the 

630
00:25:42,851 --> 00:25:45,184
Air Force for any of the other services . 

631
00:25:45,184 --> 00:25:47,129
I have never heard from any of the 

632
00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:49,351
services . None of the services reached 

633
00:25:49,351 --> 00:25:51,407
out to us to talk about the report . 

634
00:25:51,407 --> 00:25:53,790
Our findings ? What do you think the 

635
00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:55,846
military should do to show that it's 

636
00:25:55,846 --> 00:25:58,730
taking these disparities ? Disparities ? 

637
00:25:58,730 --> 00:26:01,780
Seriously ? Well , I think the first 

638
00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:04,210
thing we needed realizes that this is 

639
00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:06,099
information that I know . The Air 

640
00:26:06,099 --> 00:26:09,190
Force's track for decades back to lease 

641
00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:11,960
the eighties and nothing was ever done . 

642
00:26:12,140 --> 00:26:14,430
Eso There's a long track record of 

643
00:26:14,430 --> 00:26:16,800
doing nothing . When our first report 

644
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,630
came out in 2017 you know , that was an 

645
00:26:19,630 --> 00:26:21,519
opportunity had been put into the 

646
00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:23,574
public . Clyde caught a lot of media 

647
00:26:23,574 --> 00:26:25,797
coverage . Congress was concerned about 

648
00:26:25,797 --> 00:26:27,963
it . That was opportunity to show they 

649
00:26:27,963 --> 00:26:27,600
were gonna do something about they 

650
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,370
haven't , uh , general Goldfein , I 

651
00:26:30,370 --> 00:26:33,100
think , took the first step by ordering 

652
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,156
the investigation . But the thing to 

653
00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,156
remember about that investigation , 

654
00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:38,767
that's an internal Air Force 

655
00:26:38,767 --> 00:26:40,822
investigation by the I G . Who works 

656
00:26:40,822 --> 00:26:42,933
for General Govert . Fine . Uh , they 

657
00:26:42,933 --> 00:26:45,650
need to be looking at outside sources 

658
00:26:45,650 --> 00:26:47,706
to come in and talk him about that . 

659
00:26:47,706 --> 00:26:50,480
Experts on Disparity Truly , people 

660
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,170
understand what the causes are , and I 

661
00:26:53,170 --> 00:26:55,226
think one of the things they have to 

662
00:26:55,226 --> 00:26:57,800
accept because what we have seen to the 

663
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,970
limit to degree , they have looked at 

664
00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:01,581
it . They have tried to look 

665
00:27:01,581 --> 00:27:05,170
exclusively unconscious vice . They 

666
00:27:05,170 --> 00:27:08,130
have to accept that there's also actual 

667
00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:09,963
buys , their action . People are 

668
00:27:09,963 --> 00:27:12,460
prejudiced serving in the military . I 

669
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:14,682
don't think it's most . I don't know if 

670
00:27:14,682 --> 00:27:16,849
it's many , but that we do have that . 

671
00:27:16,849 --> 00:27:19,050
There was a naval officer who was just 

672
00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:22,640
accidentally disclosed his racist 

673
00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:26,330
beliefs on on Facebook by life . Stream 

674
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:28,441
made a conversation between him . His 

675
00:27:28,441 --> 00:27:30,663
wife there was horrific Lee racist . He 

676
00:27:30,663 --> 00:27:32,608
is an academy grad and the retired 

677
00:27:32,608 --> 00:27:35,270
captain . We have to accept that this 

678
00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:38,830
isn't just in Pless unconscious bites , 

679
00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:41,320
that there are people who don't like 

680
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,376
black people or other minorities and 

681
00:27:43,376 --> 00:27:45,487
don't want him in the military . They 

682
00:27:45,487 --> 00:27:47,431
have to try to root this out . But 

683
00:27:47,431 --> 00:27:49,740
leadership I needed to stand up decades 

684
00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:52,880
ago . Need to stand up in 2016 . Needed 

685
00:27:52,890 --> 00:27:56,100
stand up in 2017 . Need to stand up in 

686
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,160
2019 . That has to show that they 

687
00:27:59,170 --> 00:28:01,950
really care about this on this Farrell . 

688
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:06,000
All right . Um , what would you 

689
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,560
want us to make sure that the 

690
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,860
Department of Defense does moving 

691
00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:14,440
forward . Thank you , Madam . 

692
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:17,320
Chairwoman Azzan noted in my statement , 

693
00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:19,052
we think implementation of our 

694
00:28:19,052 --> 00:28:21,163
recommendations are key . In fact , I 

695
00:28:21,163 --> 00:28:23,386
think the recommendations in our report 

696
00:28:23,386 --> 00:28:27,140
our road map for Dia de with the 

697
00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:29,251
final chapter being the causes of the 

698
00:28:29,251 --> 00:28:31,420
disparity and taking steps to make 

699
00:28:31,420 --> 00:28:34,050
corrections , I think continued 

700
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:36,660
oversight in this area is necessary . 

701
00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:39,090
Especially as my colleagues on the 

702
00:28:39,090 --> 00:28:41,480
panel has noted these disparities have 

703
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,860
been lingering for some time now . We 

704
00:28:43,860 --> 00:28:47,080
have hard , reliable data to help 

705
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:50,060
pinpoint where there are differences so 

706
00:28:50,060 --> 00:28:53,850
that the body can target where 

707
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:56,240
to start looking for the causes of 

708
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,570
these . So I think continued oversight 

709
00:28:58,580 --> 00:29:01,350
is necessary . We noted in the report 

710
00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:03,572
that the National Defense Authorization 

711
00:29:03,572 --> 00:29:06,180
Act with this care 2020 have provisions 

712
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:08,236
that were consistent with several of 

713
00:29:08,236 --> 00:29:10,740
our recommendations of some deadlines 

714
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:12,907
have been set in terms of when the U . 

715
00:29:12,907 --> 00:29:16,020
D must begin to look at , say , the 

716
00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:18,242
causes of disparities . But there's not 

717
00:29:18,242 --> 00:29:20,464
an end date . I think it was recognized 

718
00:29:20,464 --> 00:29:22,520
that more data was needed , and this 

719
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,820
was going to be a very complex review . 

720
00:29:25,150 --> 00:29:27,150
But in order to make sure that that 

721
00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:29,090
record is completed , I think 

722
00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:31,090
congressional oversight is gonna be 

723
00:29:31,090 --> 00:29:33,368
very important . Thank you . Thank you , 

724
00:29:33,368 --> 00:29:36,950
Mr Kelly . Thank you , Chairwoman Spear 

725
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:39,510
and first up , the cause of racial 

726
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:42,090
disparity across society and across the 

727
00:29:42,090 --> 00:29:44,201
motive server is elusive , except for 

728
00:29:44,201 --> 00:29:46,201
those who are blatantly races . And 

729
00:29:46,201 --> 00:29:48,423
there are those in every organization , 

730
00:29:48,423 --> 00:29:51,250
including the military . What 

731
00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:53,530
recommendations , if any , do you have 

732
00:29:53,530 --> 00:29:55,141
that would be helpful to the 

733
00:29:55,141 --> 00:29:56,974
departments in getting after the 

734
00:29:56,974 --> 00:29:59,530
causation and fashioning of remedies 

735
00:29:59,650 --> 00:30:01,706
and also understanding the causation 

736
00:30:01,706 --> 00:30:03,872
that aren't those that are intentional 

737
00:30:03,872 --> 00:30:06,120
those cultural or or whatever 

738
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,453
disparities that are caused by cultural ? 

739
00:30:08,453 --> 00:30:11,310
What ? What remedies with job . Thank 

740
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:13,310
you . Rank . Ranking member Kelly . 

741
00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:16,220
Well , I think , uh , General goat 

742
00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:19,450
finds taking a first good step on that 

743
00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:23,280
by actually kidding the input from the 

744
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,460
rank and file of services we've heard 

745
00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:28,627
from protect protector defenders since 

746
00:30:28,627 --> 00:30:30,793
their first report came out of segment 

747
00:30:30,793 --> 00:30:32,900
board from a lot of Black service 

748
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:35,067
members who talking about what they're 

749
00:30:35,067 --> 00:30:38,250
experiencing , I think Theo Air Force 

750
00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:40,760
particularly , is an incredibly white 

751
00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:43,290
officer corps , the fighter pilot 

752
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:46,610
communities less than 3% black on . So 

753
00:30:46,610 --> 00:30:48,832
I think there's a lack of understanding 

754
00:30:48,832 --> 00:30:50,777
what the Black Service members and 

755
00:30:50,777 --> 00:30:52,721
other minority service members air 

756
00:30:52,721 --> 00:30:54,888
facing the difficulties they faced . A 

757
00:30:54,888 --> 00:30:58,120
lack of mentorship in 2015 Air Force 

758
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,287
times were a really good article about 

759
00:31:00,287 --> 00:31:02,490
promotion failures for Black Service 

760
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:04,434
members . Failures to get definite 

761
00:31:04,434 --> 00:31:06,490
promotes the fans air to get in 

762
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:10,080
residence . PM me and so getting this 

763
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,290
service members at the top to 

764
00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:14,480
understand that there are issues their 

765
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,369
impact in the way blocks progress 

766
00:31:16,369 --> 00:31:18,258
throughout the military and other 

767
00:31:18,258 --> 00:31:20,369
minorities . Progress is really a key 

768
00:31:20,369 --> 00:31:22,202
to that . And second , I want to 

769
00:31:22,202 --> 00:31:24,369
understand the significant of years of 

770
00:31:24,369 --> 00:31:26,710
service on this analysis . As I recall 

771
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:28,654
in the G A O report , you included 

772
00:31:28,654 --> 00:31:30,766
years of service in your analysis for 

773
00:31:30,766 --> 00:31:32,932
the Air Force data , but not the other 

774
00:31:32,932 --> 00:31:34,599
services , because it closely 

775
00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:36,710
correlated with Ryan . Are we looking 

776
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:38,932
at generally a problem that has focused 

777
00:31:38,932 --> 00:31:41,154
primarily on youngest sovereign members 

778
00:31:41,154 --> 00:31:43,266
across the services . And if so , how 

779
00:31:43,266 --> 00:31:45,321
does this data compare nationally to 

780
00:31:45,321 --> 00:31:47,043
trains ? And I for you , man , 

781
00:31:50,140 --> 00:31:53,390
thank you for that question . Uh , we 

782
00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:55,930
did do a by very great branch and 

783
00:31:55,930 --> 00:31:57,874
analysis as well as a multi varied 

784
00:31:57,874 --> 00:32:00,160
where we would control for certain 

785
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,110
characteristics such as years of 

786
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:06,730
service or rank , and each service 

787
00:32:06,730 --> 00:32:08,841
model was a little bit different . We 

788
00:32:08,841 --> 00:32:11,008
were very closely with the services in 

789
00:32:11,008 --> 00:32:13,119
order to understand what was going on 

790
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,860
with their particular service . Uh , as 

791
00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:20,640
far as a comparison between older and 

792
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,990
younger , we did not develop that 

793
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,240
particular analysis to target . In 

794
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,090
terms of that , we are aware of 

795
00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:33,160
some studies that are done in the 

796
00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:35,337
private sector . But we did not try to 

797
00:32:35,337 --> 00:32:37,559
make any comparisons of what's going on 

798
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:39,781
the military justice system with what's 

799
00:32:39,781 --> 00:32:43,060
going on and Silver civil justices . I 

800
00:32:43,070 --> 00:32:45,126
hope that answers your question . It 

801
00:32:45,126 --> 00:32:46,959
doesn't back . Mr Christians are 

802
00:32:46,959 --> 00:32:49,510
Colonel Christians , and I'm sorry I 

803
00:32:49,510 --> 00:32:51,621
want to go back in my career . When I 

804
00:32:51,621 --> 00:32:54,370
first got in 30 something years ago , I 

805
00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:56,537
think I had the first African American 

806
00:32:56,537 --> 00:32:58,481
first sort of the Mississippi Army 

807
00:32:58,481 --> 00:33:00,481
National Guard that served under my 

808
00:33:00,481 --> 00:33:02,370
command . But over there , so you 

809
00:33:02,370 --> 00:33:04,537
rarely saw any senior . And she goes , 

810
00:33:04,537 --> 00:33:06,537
I can name on one hand . The senior 

811
00:33:06,537 --> 00:33:08,592
0506 level officers who were African 

812
00:33:08,592 --> 00:33:10,648
American in the Mississippi National 

813
00:33:10,648 --> 00:33:12,759
Guard , which is Mississippi's 40 40% 

814
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:16,500
are African American now I can't count . 

815
00:33:17,390 --> 00:33:19,557
And many of those were my soldiers who 

816
00:33:19,557 --> 00:33:21,612
are meant toward I personally made a 

817
00:33:21,612 --> 00:33:23,557
different who are Sergeant Major , 

818
00:33:23,557 --> 00:33:25,668
sergeant first class , who were first 

819
00:33:25,668 --> 00:33:28,020
sergeants . The last three brigade 

820
00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:29,853
commanders that followed me is a 

821
00:33:29,853 --> 00:33:31,631
brigade commander , all African 

822
00:33:31,631 --> 00:33:33,687
American not because they're African 

823
00:33:33,687 --> 00:33:35,909
American cause that the best we got the 

824
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:38,220
absolute best . So now it is there . So 

825
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:40,442
you served a sport during the data that 

826
00:33:40,442 --> 00:33:43,040
we collected from 2010 to 2014 you 

827
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,207
served in the Air Force and one of the 

828
00:33:45,207 --> 00:33:47,373
chief legal rose . So what did you see 

829
00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:49,670
and what did you do ? And now , with 

830
00:33:49,670 --> 00:33:51,614
the experience you have now , what 

831
00:33:51,614 --> 00:33:53,670
would you do now different to change 

832
00:33:53,670 --> 00:33:55,837
the outcome of what happens in the Air 

833
00:33:55,837 --> 00:33:57,948
Force to carnal Christians ? That's a 

834
00:33:57,948 --> 00:34:00,114
great question , and I and I agree the 

835
00:34:00,114 --> 00:34:02,620
Army actually is further ahead in 

836
00:34:03,310 --> 00:34:06,050
Officer Corby in African American Air 

837
00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:09,630
Force lags behind the rest . Uh , what 

838
00:34:09,630 --> 00:34:12,490
did I see ? Uh , look , I never 

839
00:34:12,490 --> 00:34:14,910
prosecuted someone that I thought was 

840
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,142
innocent . Of course , I don't make the 

841
00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:19,198
prosecution decision . Somebody else 

842
00:34:19,198 --> 00:34:21,420
does . As you know , uh , I don't think 

843
00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:23,531
it was necessarily case that innocent 

844
00:34:23,531 --> 00:34:25,698
people were being brought trial . What 

845
00:34:25,698 --> 00:34:27,976
I thought the problem was is that , uh , 

846
00:34:27,976 --> 00:34:30,300
others were getting the benefit of the 

847
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:32,830
doubt . Based upon whether the 

848
00:34:32,830 --> 00:34:35,580
relationship implicit by its explicit 

849
00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:37,524
pies , whatever it was , they were 

850
00:34:37,524 --> 00:34:39,747
getting the benefit of the doubt . So , 

851
00:34:39,747 --> 00:34:41,858
for example , two years ago , the Air 

852
00:34:41,858 --> 00:34:44,024
Force decided to prosecute a black N C 

853
00:34:44,024 --> 00:34:46,247
O for being six minutes late toe work , 

854
00:34:46,247 --> 00:34:48,469
literally six minutes late to meeting . 

855
00:34:48,469 --> 00:34:50,636
Excuse me . And he has a court martial 

856
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:52,636
conviction . That's a decision that 

857
00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:54,636
truly should not have been made . I 

858
00:34:54,636 --> 00:34:56,747
don't care . Was an article 15 turned 

859
00:34:56,747 --> 00:34:58,969
around or not ? Just the optics of it . 

860
00:34:58,969 --> 00:35:01,136
What did I do ? Well , one thing I was 

861
00:35:01,136 --> 00:35:03,080
very concerned about and raises an 

862
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,730
issue was the lack of blackjacks . We 

863
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,182
do not have enough . We have one of the 

864
00:35:08,182 --> 00:35:10,349
great former one sitting behind me and 

865
00:35:10,349 --> 00:35:12,810
Joe her colonel . Or but when I retired 

866
00:35:12,810 --> 00:35:15,670
where I believe we had one of 124 

867
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:17,837
colonels in the Jag corps were African 

868
00:35:17,837 --> 00:35:21,150
American . Eso I encouraged 

869
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,890
the African American word for me to try 

870
00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:26,070
to make a career out of it , to be 

871
00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:28,990
concerned about it . Uh , I sat on a 

872
00:35:28,990 --> 00:35:31,750
promotion or excuse me on a selection 

873
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:34,490
board . I encourage the people who also 

874
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:37,250
sent out selection board to focus on 

875
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:39,427
finding good African Americans to come 

876
00:35:39,427 --> 00:35:42,140
into Jack or because I think part of 

877
00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:44,580
that experience of the day would bring 

878
00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:46,636
in would be important health without 

879
00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:50,080
bias . What have I done since obviously 

880
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,290
filing this report ? It was important 

881
00:35:52,290 --> 00:35:54,401
to me . I knew the data was there and 

882
00:35:54,401 --> 00:35:56,623
it troubled me . Throughout my career . 

883
00:35:56,623 --> 00:35:58,734
I never saw leadership really address 

884
00:35:58,734 --> 00:36:00,901
it , and I thought it was important to 

885
00:36:00,901 --> 00:36:02,623
bring it forward . Thank you , 

886
00:36:02,623 --> 00:36:04,846
Chairwoman . Are you back ? Thank you , 

887
00:36:04,846 --> 00:36:08,310
Mr . Kelly was were white and 

888
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:10,290
CEOs that were six minutes late , 

889
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:13,480
courts martialed . I have never seen 

890
00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:15,440
anybody court martialed with soul 

891
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,496
offense of being six minutes late to 

892
00:36:17,496 --> 00:36:19,329
meeting . Other than its African 

893
00:36:19,329 --> 00:36:22,300
American , it's really stunning All 

894
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:24,430
right , Miss Davis , Um , you're 

895
00:36:24,430 --> 00:36:27,830
recognized for five minutes . Thank you . 

896
00:36:27,830 --> 00:36:30,130
Thank you , madam Chair . And you are 

897
00:36:30,130 --> 00:36:32,297
witnesses . Thank you for joining us . 

898
00:36:33,730 --> 00:36:36,620
Ah , Colonel Piston said first . How 

899
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:39,250
can you talk with maybe without getting 

900
00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:41,330
in the weeds too much a little bit 

901
00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:44,220
about , um , how you gather your your 

902
00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:46,960
statistical information . And I just 

903
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,960
wanted to get a sense of the assist 

904
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,960
ical statistical analysis , whether 

905
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,960
that was very different , um , from 

906
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,016
Miss Barrels . And and And then I'll 

907
00:36:55,016 --> 00:36:57,071
ask Miss Farrell . It's just talking 

908
00:36:57,071 --> 00:36:59,620
about that And whether you think 

909
00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:02,210
information was concealed and sort of 

910
00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:04,520
your level of confidence . I guess with 

911
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,420
with the the analysis and whether it 

912
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:09,430
revealed sort of really what you're 

913
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:11,740
trying to get out here . How do we do 

914
00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:15,560
that ? Thank you , Congressman Davis . 

915
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,770
So for the initial FOIA requests we 

916
00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:21,180
requested from each service 10 years of 

917
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:25,090
data showing their raper thousands of 

918
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:28,830
court martial in article 15 for African 

919
00:37:28,830 --> 00:37:30,997
American whites and other minorities . 

920
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,620
Uh , we received that data from 

921
00:37:33,620 --> 00:37:36,070
everyone except the navy only gave us 

922
00:37:36,070 --> 00:37:38,070
two years of data . The Coast Guard 

923
00:37:38,070 --> 00:37:41,950
never responded . The , uh , data 

924
00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:44,228
we got from the Air Force was the best . 

925
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,340
I knew their process would track Well , 

926
00:37:47,730 --> 00:37:50,810
ah , very confident that the data that 

927
00:37:50,810 --> 00:37:54,110
they provide us is accurate . And that 

928
00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:57,160
what we saw out of that data waas a 

929
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,210
historical disparity of racial 

930
00:38:01,540 --> 00:38:04,150
where blacks were prosecuted and given 

931
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:07,710
Article 15 on a much greater rate and 

932
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,998
that it was getting worse , not better . 

933
00:38:09,998 --> 00:38:12,109
And that's what we saw across all the 

934
00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:14,460
services . Uh , the Army did not track 

935
00:38:14,650 --> 00:38:17,630
nonjudicial punishments . The Marine 

936
00:38:17,630 --> 00:38:21,310
Corps Unnie tracked by convictions they 

937
00:38:21,310 --> 00:38:23,532
didn't . So we don't know what how many 

938
00:38:23,532 --> 00:38:25,699
cases were charged , His convictions , 

939
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,142
the Marine Corps . It was interesting . 

940
00:38:28,142 --> 00:38:30,142
As theme or severe , the punishment 

941
00:38:30,142 --> 00:38:32,031
degraded the disparity . So , for 

942
00:38:32,031 --> 00:38:34,930
example , by the time we got to general 

943
00:38:34,930 --> 00:38:36,986
courts martial in the Marine Corps , 

944
00:38:36,986 --> 00:38:38,930
the disparity was almost 2.6 times 

945
00:38:38,930 --> 00:38:40,930
greater for blacks . And it was for 

946
00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:44,720
whites , uh , theme . The 

947
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,050
issue we don't would cover up waas . 

948
00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:50,050
When we did the follow on about the 

949
00:38:50,050 --> 00:38:52,050
racial disparity panel that the Air 

950
00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:55,530
Force said that they established and 

951
00:38:55,540 --> 00:38:57,540
Miss Farrell , could you respond to 

952
00:38:57,540 --> 00:38:59,651
that ? And are there some differences 

953
00:38:59,651 --> 00:39:01,762
or various again that you didn't feel 

954
00:39:01,762 --> 00:39:03,429
that you were able to get the 

955
00:39:03,429 --> 00:39:06,660
information and , um really had some 

956
00:39:06,670 --> 00:39:09,220
sort of lack of confidence . Maybe in 

957
00:39:09,230 --> 00:39:12,780
some of that data , Sure , I'll be 

958
00:39:12,780 --> 00:39:16,350
happy to expand upon our methodology . 

959
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,860
Our methodology was for a different 

960
00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:22,130
time period . Thin dons is listen much 

961
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:24,610
longer . Ours focused on the physical 

962
00:39:24,610 --> 00:39:28,370
year 2013 2017 which was the latest 

963
00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:32,270
available data . We experienced 

964
00:39:32,270 --> 00:39:33,992
very good cooperation from the 

965
00:39:33,992 --> 00:39:36,214
Department of Defense . This was a very 

966
00:39:36,214 --> 00:39:38,570
rigorous analysis is I noted we 

967
00:39:38,570 --> 00:39:41,910
obtained the records all the records 

968
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:43,910
for that period between fiscal year 

969
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:47,410
2013 and 2017 in 

970
00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:50,610
three , dead in three categories of 15 

971
00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:53,500
databases across services . There were 

972
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,060
some places where data was incomplete , 

973
00:39:57,070 --> 00:40:00,500
and that's the reason we say that it's 

974
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,222
We found disparities that were 

975
00:40:02,222 --> 00:40:04,278
statistically significant at certain 

976
00:40:04,278 --> 00:40:07,070
stages of the military jury justice 

977
00:40:07,070 --> 00:40:10,510
process . But at other stages of the 

978
00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:12,510
findings were inconclusive and it's 

979
00:40:12,510 --> 00:40:14,677
usually inconclusive for two reasons . 

980
00:40:14,677 --> 00:40:17,700
One incomplete data . Not that any of 

981
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:19,867
the service did not provide the data , 

982
00:40:19,867 --> 00:40:22,070
but the data was incomplete , such as 

983
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,880
nonjudicial Punishments of the data was 

984
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,390
incomplete for the army and the maybe 

985
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:30,557
as well as the Coast Guard , so it was 

986
00:40:30,557 --> 00:40:33,780
very inconclusive . But way were seeing 

987
00:40:33,780 --> 00:40:35,870
very good cooperation from duty 

988
00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:40,090
analysis that Joo did , uh , in Kabul . 

989
00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:42,221
Knowing all this information together 

990
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:44,650
takes time , it's not something that 

991
00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:47,430
deal be could do routinely in an 

992
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:49,541
efficient manner . That's why it's so 

993
00:40:49,541 --> 00:40:51,541
important for them to carry out the 

994
00:40:51,541 --> 00:40:55,060
recommendation to adapt their 

995
00:40:55,060 --> 00:40:57,640
personnel and their investigative 

996
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,840
databases to have the same uniform 

997
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,780
standards as the military justice . So 

998
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:06,420
that going forward , especially if the 

999
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:08,880
causes of disparities are identified 

1000
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,960
and steps were taken to remedy those 

1001
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,231
you want to be sure you have put that 

1002
00:41:13,231 --> 00:41:15,890
in place . I don't think you will find 

1003
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:18,320
that promise . Yeah , okay , thank you . 

1004
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,500
And I hope that in our next discussion 

1005
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:22,640
will get into those causes . Uh , 

1006
00:41:22,650 --> 00:41:24,840
certainly . But girl Christians in 

1007
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,062
going back to you very , very quickly I 

1008
00:41:27,062 --> 00:41:29,118
know you gente on and really in your 

1009
00:41:29,118 --> 00:41:31,118
analysis , felt it was important to 

1010
00:41:31,118 --> 00:41:32,951
look it legally trained military 

1011
00:41:32,951 --> 00:41:35,120
prosecutors . But I guess within the 

1012
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,120
judicial system , we would probably 

1013
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,398
I'll agree that there's always there's , 

1014
00:41:39,398 --> 00:41:41,509
there is some bias there . How do you 

1015
00:41:41,509 --> 00:41:43,760
How do you think that's different in 

1016
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,482
the military ? How could it be 

1017
00:41:45,482 --> 00:41:47,316
different if I'm understand your 

1018
00:41:47,316 --> 00:41:49,970
question ? Um , well , I think rather 

1019
00:41:49,970 --> 00:41:52,300
than leaning , leading on the 

1020
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:56,140
commander's , the military legally 

1021
00:41:56,140 --> 00:41:58,307
trade military prosecutors . Is that a 

1022
00:41:58,307 --> 00:42:00,473
different kind of bias that they would 

1023
00:42:00,473 --> 00:42:03,800
bring to their positions ? Well , 

1024
00:42:03,810 --> 00:42:06,220
I think that there's also always some 

1025
00:42:06,220 --> 00:42:08,498
implicit bias within new Jessel system . 

1026
00:42:08,498 --> 00:42:10,553
Of course , as well as a swell is in 

1027
00:42:10,553 --> 00:42:12,760
the military as well as in society . 

1028
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,120
But you see that Mr Pernetti and why ? 

1029
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,398
But there that recommendation be there . 

1030
00:42:18,398 --> 00:42:20,342
Well , as I agree , ranking member 

1031
00:42:20,342 --> 00:42:22,342
Kelly there's always buys no matter 

1032
00:42:22,342 --> 00:42:24,176
what system we have , and that's 

1033
00:42:24,176 --> 00:42:26,590
unfortunate . The reason we talk about 

1034
00:42:26,590 --> 00:42:29,960
that is the bias that the command 

1035
00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:32,690
decision who had the commander has the 

1036
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:34,950
power to make that decision is he knows 

1037
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:37,460
the accused . He also knows the person 

1038
00:42:37,460 --> 00:42:39,460
he chose not to prosecute or not to 

1039
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:42,240
give an article 15 to . Whereas , as a 

1040
00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:44,472
prosecutor , I never knew anybody until 

1041
00:42:44,472 --> 00:42:46,790
I walked in the court . S o . I could 

1042
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:49,100
not have a bias against them one way or 

1043
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:51,322
the other , and so that's where I think 

1044
00:42:51,322 --> 00:42:54,190
the key is there's an inherent bias in 

1045
00:42:54,190 --> 00:42:56,412
the chain of command when they know the 

1046
00:42:56,412 --> 00:42:58,730
people involved . If they haven't 

1047
00:42:58,730 --> 00:43:00,341
established the same kind of 

1048
00:43:00,341 --> 00:43:02,397
relationships with African Americans 

1049
00:43:02,397 --> 00:43:04,563
that work with for them , as they have 

1050
00:43:04,563 --> 00:43:06,730
with the white service members of work 

1051
00:43:06,730 --> 00:43:08,786
for them , I think it's gonna have a 

1052
00:43:08,786 --> 00:43:11,008
negative impact . And you feel that the 

1053
00:43:11,008 --> 00:43:13,790
prosecutors wouldn't bring that kind of 

1054
00:43:13,790 --> 00:43:15,790
bias , At least in maybe . What are 

1055
00:43:15,790 --> 00:43:18,012
other other biases that they actually , 

1056
00:43:18,012 --> 00:43:20,510
um , Miss Davis , you've gone over a 

1057
00:43:20,510 --> 00:43:23,660
minute . 51 So great . All right . 

1058
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:25,781
Thank you . Thank you . Better here . 

1059
00:43:25,781 --> 00:43:28,003
All right . Next we have this Escobar , 

1060
00:43:28,003 --> 00:43:30,059
you're recognized for five minutes . 

1061
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:34,610
Thank you so much , Madam Chairwoman . 

1062
00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:36,676
And many , thanks to our Panelists . 

1063
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:38,734
You know , Kirk Kristiansen . It's 

1064
00:43:38,734 --> 00:43:40,846
really interesting that you mentioned 

1065
00:43:40,846 --> 00:43:43,860
the Coast Guard because I just recently 

1066
00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:46,220
read a report about the Coast Guard , 

1067
00:43:46,220 --> 00:43:48,442
which obviously is under the Department 

1068
00:43:48,442 --> 00:43:51,270
of Homeland Security . Not uh d o d . 

1069
00:43:51,350 --> 00:43:55,220
But the , um , report by the inspector 

1070
00:43:55,220 --> 00:43:58,860
general found that incidents of , 

1071
00:43:59,140 --> 00:44:02,650
um , racial harassment were 

1072
00:44:02,650 --> 00:44:06,610
not . There were no consequences 

1073
00:44:06,610 --> 00:44:09,810
for cadets who used racial slurs 

1074
00:44:09,820 --> 00:44:12,060
against their fellow cadets . 

1075
00:44:12,330 --> 00:44:14,497
Absolutely no consequences . And there 

1076
00:44:14,497 --> 00:44:17,000
was a history of this . And so I think 

1077
00:44:17,010 --> 00:44:19,121
one of the things that we're going to 

1078
00:44:19,121 --> 00:44:21,121
need to do is really kind of take a 

1079
00:44:21,121 --> 00:44:25,070
look at , um , at really 

1080
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,120
a broad sense of cut cause ality , 

1081
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,860
including whether folks were punished 

1082
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:34,790
for using racial slurs , etcetera . But 

1083
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:37,012
to both of you . And I know we're gonna 

1084
00:44:37,012 --> 00:44:39,179
get into this morning the next panel . 

1085
00:44:39,179 --> 00:44:41,530
But well , as we're talking about the 

1086
00:44:41,540 --> 00:44:44,620
positive factors , what would you say ? 

1087
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:46,630
Just based on the research that you 

1088
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:48,519
have done , what are the positive 

1089
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:51,430
factors in these disparities in the 

1090
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:53,152
research that you have found ? 

1091
00:44:55,390 --> 00:44:57,168
Well , and that's the excellent 

1092
00:44:57,168 --> 00:44:59,279
question and , you know , goes beyond 

1093
00:44:59,279 --> 00:45:01,350
my expertise is . And what the data 

1094
00:45:01,710 --> 00:45:03,877
that we have is the data shows This is 

1095
00:45:03,877 --> 00:45:06,380
a problem on . And that's what we were 

1096
00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:09,140
hoping that the military service would 

1097
00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:10,918
do once the problem was brought 

1098
00:45:10,918 --> 00:45:12,918
publicly to lie to them , that they 

1099
00:45:12,918 --> 00:45:15,029
would look for the causes and we were 

1100
00:45:15,029 --> 00:45:17,307
limited in what access we have on that . 

1101
00:45:17,307 --> 00:45:20,440
But just as someone who served for 23 

1102
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,340
years and it served all that in 

1103
00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:24,870
military justice world , I do think 

1104
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:27,520
that theme the racial makeup , 

1105
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,900
especially of the Air Force leadership 

1106
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:33,430
without a doubt , has some impact on 

1107
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,607
the disparities that we have . General 

1108
00:45:35,607 --> 00:45:37,718
heightened . When he testified at his 

1109
00:45:37,718 --> 00:45:39,940
nomination hearing to become device 

1110
00:45:39,940 --> 00:45:43,770
chair felt here , uh , when he 

1111
00:45:43,770 --> 00:45:47,390
became the vice chair on , said that 

1112
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,640
basically , the issue of race was 

1113
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,800
behind the military , that he when he 

1114
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,210
looked at the service , it was color 

1115
00:45:56,210 --> 00:45:59,410
blind . Azi did it , you know , 

1116
00:45:59,410 --> 00:46:01,420
And that's the problem . You know , 

1117
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:04,360
there's 24 star African American 

1118
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,700
generals and entire D . O . D s . So we 

1119
00:46:07,710 --> 00:46:11,130
really need to focus on on the 

1120
00:46:11,140 --> 00:46:13,530
inclusion of all races and their voices 

1121
00:46:13,530 --> 00:46:16,480
and understanding issues that the young 

1122
00:46:16,490 --> 00:46:18,434
Black Service members are facing . 

1123
00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:23,002
Thank you so much , Miss Farrell . Your 

1124
00:46:23,002 --> 00:46:25,113
thoughts and anything come to mind as 

1125
00:46:25,113 --> 00:46:28,720
you were conducting your research . One 

1126
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:30,942
of our objectives was to determine what 

1127
00:46:30,942 --> 00:46:33,810
steps todo taken to determine causes 

1128
00:46:33,810 --> 00:46:36,290
and disparities . And what we found was 

1129
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:38,300
there's been some steps , but not a 

1130
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:40,570
comprehensive review by steps . There's 

1131
00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:43,640
climate surveys that gained information 

1132
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,130
on perspectives of service members . 

1133
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:49,330
But going back to the seventies 

1134
00:46:49,330 --> 00:46:51,386
eighties and nineties , there really 

1135
00:46:51,386 --> 00:46:54,040
hasn't been focused on the military 

1136
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,870
justice system and causes for 

1137
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,050
experience . We again think that our 

1138
00:46:58,050 --> 00:47:00,940
report pointing to certain stages of 

1139
00:47:00,940 --> 00:47:02,996
the military , cross says , can help 

1140
00:47:02,996 --> 00:47:05,051
carry cause where to start looking . 

1141
00:47:05,051 --> 00:47:08,070
For those causes on . That is a 

1142
00:47:08,070 --> 00:47:10,237
recommendation duties agree with , but 

1143
00:47:10,237 --> 00:47:11,848
also in the National Defense 

1144
00:47:11,848 --> 00:47:14,290
Authorization Act for 2020 . There is a 

1145
00:47:14,290 --> 00:47:16,457
provision consistent with that at that 

1146
00:47:16,457 --> 00:47:19,660
by , uh , blames this month . View he 

1147
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:21,920
will proceed with such a study . 

1148
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,750
Commence it . Thank you . Thank you 

1149
00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:27,028
both . I'm quickly running out of time . 

1150
00:47:27,028 --> 00:47:28,930
I just wanted Teoh make note for 

1151
00:47:28,930 --> 00:47:30,986
something about something with my my 

1152
00:47:30,986 --> 00:47:33,041
colleagues and with the chairwoman . 

1153
00:47:33,041 --> 00:47:35,430
You know , we've We've been talking 

1154
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:38,380
about this issue , um , for the last 

1155
00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:40,740
year and 1/2 and it really is important 

1156
00:47:40,740 --> 00:47:42,760
in terms off , not just African 

1157
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,410
American service members , but Latinos . 

1158
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,350
Um , and also , I'm very curious about 

1159
00:47:48,350 --> 00:47:50,390
the impact on immigrants in our 

1160
00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:53,076
services , especially when we have a 

1161
00:47:53,076 --> 00:47:54,131
commander in chief 

1162
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,520
on disparate treatment as well . But 

1163
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,742
one of the things that we have found is 

1164
00:48:04,742 --> 00:48:07,300
at the highest levels of authority 

1165
00:48:07,310 --> 00:48:09,380
within the military . It's just it's 

1166
00:48:09,390 --> 00:48:12,680
even less diverse on git . Maybe 

1167
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,460
because of the adverse military 

1168
00:48:15,460 --> 00:48:17,682
judicial system encounters that you all 

1169
00:48:17,682 --> 00:48:19,849
have pointed out that maybe one of the 

1170
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:22,520
underlying causes I know just about out 

1171
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,920
of time . Thank you both again for your 

1172
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,510
work , and I yield back . Thank you , 

1173
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:30,150
Miss Escobar . Um , this Loria , you 

1174
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:32,261
are now recognized for five minutes . 

1175
00:48:37,830 --> 00:48:40,550
Um , thank you . And I want to thank 

1176
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,449
Sir Christian sent atmosphere for 

1177
00:48:43,449 --> 00:48:45,449
joining us today . And I think that 

1178
00:48:45,449 --> 00:48:47,616
this really highlights something , you 

1179
00:48:47,616 --> 00:48:47,430
know , the saying is that justice is 

1180
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,030
blind , but it's showing that justice 

1181
00:48:50,030 --> 00:48:53,390
is not color blind on having served 

1182
00:48:53,390 --> 00:48:55,557
myself in the military , having been a 

1183
00:48:55,557 --> 00:48:57,930
commanding officer and part of the N J 

1184
00:48:57,930 --> 00:49:00,970
P nonjudicial punishment process within 

1185
00:49:00,970 --> 00:49:03,450
the command . I think that , you know , 

1186
00:49:03,460 --> 00:49:05,627
understanding that in the lack of data 

1187
00:49:06,060 --> 00:49:08,227
that has been collected in the lack of 

1188
00:49:08,227 --> 00:49:11,350
affording requirements that existed , I 

1189
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,582
think that that's very useful for us to 

1190
00:49:13,582 --> 00:49:15,693
Here is a committee to understand the 

1191
00:49:15,693 --> 00:49:17,804
scope of this problem and get after , 

1192
00:49:17,804 --> 00:49:20,860
you know , true core issues of why a 

1193
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:23,850
disparity could exist . Miss Farrell 

1194
00:49:23,850 --> 00:49:26,840
just mentioned in her comments a couple 

1195
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,050
of minutes ago the fact that there's 

1196
00:49:29,050 --> 00:49:31,460
command climate data as a command 

1197
00:49:31,460 --> 00:49:33,970
climate survey data as well . That I 

1198
00:49:33,970 --> 00:49:36,250
think can be an informative on . This , 

1199
00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:38,653
you know , is part of the bigger 

1200
00:49:38,653 --> 00:49:42,200
picture because we don't necessarily 

1201
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,144
have accurate data for nonjudicial 

1202
00:49:44,144 --> 00:49:46,478
punishment in all parts of the judicial , 

1203
00:49:46,478 --> 00:49:48,700
the military justice system to go off . 

1204
00:49:48,910 --> 00:49:51,650
But even Mistral , can you elaborate on 

1205
00:49:51,660 --> 00:49:53,970
how command climate data could help 

1206
00:49:53,970 --> 00:49:56,780
inform . You know what the previous 

1207
00:49:56,930 --> 00:49:58,819
questions about from this Escobar 

1208
00:49:59,570 --> 00:50:01,570
vision , a way that we could try to 

1209
00:50:01,570 --> 00:50:03,348
incorporate that or require the 

1210
00:50:03,348 --> 00:50:05,570
incorporation of that into the analysis 

1211
00:50:05,570 --> 00:50:07,681
because that's taken regularly . It's 

1212
00:50:07,681 --> 00:50:07,280
taken from all commands , and it's 

1213
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,336
taken from the perspective of people 

1214
00:50:09,336 --> 00:50:11,470
who are not only involved themselves 

1215
00:50:11,470 --> 00:50:15,190
personally in anak ization who are 

1216
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,867
going through the nonjudicial 

1217
00:50:16,867 --> 00:50:18,644
punishment process . So can you 

1218
00:50:18,644 --> 00:50:20,700
elaborate everyone on how that could 

1219
00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:22,756
maybe be a piece of the data that we 

1220
00:50:22,756 --> 00:50:25,030
need to fully analyse ? Sure . Be happy 

1221
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:27,770
to a lot of arrayed , uh , command 

1222
00:50:27,780 --> 00:50:30,130
climate surveys are required . Ah , 

1223
00:50:30,140 --> 00:50:32,740
blink duty has gotten much better in 

1224
00:50:32,740 --> 00:50:34,962
the past few years and making sure that 

1225
00:50:34,962 --> 00:50:37,184
they be administered thanks to a little 

1226
00:50:37,184 --> 00:50:39,450
help from Congress . They're designed 

1227
00:50:39,450 --> 00:50:41,370
to help an incoming commander 

1228
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,300
understand the working environment and 

1229
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:46,590
what issues he or she may need to focus 

1230
00:50:46,590 --> 00:50:48,830
on while they have a command . There's 

1231
00:50:48,830 --> 00:50:51,120
usually a standard set of questions 

1232
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,040
that are answered and in the incoming 

1233
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,929
commander can ask some additional 

1234
00:50:55,929 --> 00:50:58,140
questions . Climate surveys have been 

1235
00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:01,200
very beneficial to paying perceptions 

1236
00:51:01,210 --> 00:51:03,930
of service members and many personnel 

1237
00:51:04,110 --> 00:51:07,540
areas of work of film looking at 

1238
00:51:07,860 --> 00:51:10,550
hazing , a swell as other sexual 

1239
00:51:10,550 --> 00:51:14,310
assault issues . So I think the 

1240
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,140
surveys could be reviewed in order to 

1241
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,910
see if there's something that could be 

1242
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:22,130
gain . We do have to be careful about 

1243
00:51:22,130 --> 00:51:24,520
survey fatigue . We hear that from duty 

1244
00:51:24,530 --> 00:51:27,070
all the time , but this comes down to 

1245
00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:30,150
where is this issue of racial and 

1246
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:32,670
ethnic disparities indeed , of these 

1247
00:51:32,670 --> 00:51:36,260
priorities ? So command climate surveys 

1248
00:51:36,270 --> 00:51:38,950
could have , Ah , some issues 

1249
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:41,760
incorporated . The status of forces is 

1250
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,730
another survey of the active duty . 

1251
00:51:44,730 --> 00:51:46,563
There's also another one for the 

1252
00:51:46,563 --> 00:51:48,786
reserve component , the civilians . But 

1253
00:51:48,786 --> 00:51:50,563
that's another one that there's 

1254
00:51:50,563 --> 00:51:52,452
standard questions that often the 

1255
00:51:52,452 --> 00:51:54,563
questions change . But when an issues 

1256
00:51:54,563 --> 00:51:56,674
emerging often do the uses the status 

1257
00:51:56,674 --> 00:51:59,370
of forces survey to ask a set of 

1258
00:51:59,370 --> 00:52:01,537
questions over a period of a few years 

1259
00:52:01,537 --> 00:52:03,592
to try to dig a little deeper to see 

1260
00:52:03,592 --> 00:52:05,759
what's going on . So there's there are 

1261
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:09,610
survey instruments already in use that 

1262
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:12,290
could be used to perhaps obtain some or 

1263
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:14,612
information about this particular issue 

1264
00:52:14,612 --> 00:52:18,160
in the military justice system . Well , 

1265
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,271
thank you for that . And you know , I 

1266
00:52:20,271 --> 00:52:22,493
think that , you know , as we look at , 

1267
00:52:22,493 --> 00:52:24,493
um , you know how to try to collect 

1268
00:52:24,493 --> 00:52:26,604
that and to assess the situation , to 

1269
00:52:26,604 --> 00:52:28,771
identify the root causes that we could 

1270
00:52:28,771 --> 00:52:30,938
consider that there is additional data 

1271
00:52:30,938 --> 00:52:33,049
on top of just statistical data about 

1272
00:52:33,049 --> 00:52:36,800
the types of JP that happened on . Do 

1273
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,280
you think it could also be somewhat 

1274
00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:41,667
difficult ? I think we have to be very 

1275
00:52:41,667 --> 00:52:43,556
clear on how we collect that data 

1276
00:52:43,556 --> 00:52:45,556
because you know different things . 

1277
00:52:45,556 --> 00:52:47,889
Stop it . Different phases Within the N . 

1278
00:52:47,889 --> 00:52:49,944
J P process . Some of them may never 

1279
00:52:49,944 --> 00:52:52,167
reach Captain's mast , for example , or 

1280
00:52:52,167 --> 00:52:54,167
office hours or whatever turned the 

1281
00:52:54,167 --> 00:52:56,222
service uses for that process on DSO 

1282
00:52:56,222 --> 00:52:58,640
may stop short of that with just 

1283
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,696
assigning extra military instruction 

1284
00:53:00,696 --> 00:53:02,696
and other things . And I think that 

1285
00:53:02,696 --> 00:53:04,751
there is also an aspect of the N J P 

1286
00:53:04,751 --> 00:53:06,807
process with the A check to maintain 

1287
00:53:06,807 --> 00:53:08,973
good order and discipline . Attempt to 

1288
00:53:08,973 --> 00:53:10,751
use the process when there is a 

1289
00:53:10,751 --> 00:53:12,696
supposed infraction to improve the 

1290
00:53:12,696 --> 00:53:14,529
performance of the sailor of the 

1291
00:53:14,529 --> 00:53:16,529
soldier , with things such as extra 

1292
00:53:16,529 --> 00:53:18,584
military instruction and things like 

1293
00:53:18,584 --> 00:53:20,529
that which are clearly required to 

1294
00:53:20,529 --> 00:53:22,807
address specifically the issue at hand . 

1295
00:53:22,807 --> 00:53:24,807
Um and are not viewed as punishment 

1296
00:53:24,807 --> 00:53:27,029
that are viewed , as you know , wasting 

1297
00:53:27,029 --> 00:53:29,140
and improve their performance on make 

1298
00:53:29,140 --> 00:53:31,307
them better soldiers or sailors . So I 

1299
00:53:31,307 --> 00:53:32,973
think , you know , definitely 

1300
00:53:32,973 --> 00:53:35,196
collecting data is very important . But 

1301
00:53:35,196 --> 00:53:38,770
I appreciate your work and researching 

1302
00:53:38,770 --> 00:53:40,881
this , and I think that we do need to 

1303
00:53:40,881 --> 00:53:43,103
do more to understand the problem or to 

1304
00:53:43,103 --> 00:53:45,214
get at the root causes . And training 

1305
00:53:45,214 --> 00:53:47,437
is also an issue as well . I think that 

1306
00:53:47,437 --> 00:53:47,290
as a commanding officer , you know , 

1307
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,190
and maybe what was specifically the 

1308
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,390
maybe legal justice course , and then 

1309
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,511
there's not really any specific thing 

1310
00:53:55,511 --> 00:53:57,511
that I recall in that training that 

1311
00:53:57,511 --> 00:53:59,400
addressed specifically looking at 

1312
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,840
racial disparities or uniform 

1313
00:54:03,140 --> 00:54:05,307
application of the justice system . So 

1314
00:54:05,307 --> 00:54:07,640
I apologize ever and over , madam Chair . 

1315
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,862
But thank you again . I look forward to 

1316
00:54:09,862 --> 00:54:12,084
the next of Pamela's . Thank you , Miss 

1317
00:54:12,084 --> 00:54:13,980
Loria . Now , Miss Helen , you're 

1318
00:54:13,980 --> 00:54:16,170
recognized for five minutes , except 

1319
00:54:16,170 --> 00:54:18,680
you're not there . Um , we'll come back 

1320
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,347
to you , Mr Cisneros . You're 

1321
00:54:20,347 --> 00:54:24,340
recognized for five minutes . Thank you , 

1322
00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:26,640
Madam Chairwoman . And I think our 

1323
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,473
Panelists for being here today , 

1324
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,710
Colonel questions in Look , I'm a 

1325
00:54:31,710 --> 00:54:34,190
product of the Navy's What used to be 

1326
00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:36,468
the Navy's apartment of action program . 

1327
00:54:36,468 --> 00:54:38,412
I went through this program called 

1328
00:54:38,412 --> 00:54:40,190
Brought an opportunity , roster 

1329
00:54:40,190 --> 00:54:42,023
selection and training . It took 

1330
00:54:42,023 --> 00:54:44,700
enlisted personnel of people of color . 

1331
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:49,310
How preparing for college . So it was 

1332
00:54:49,310 --> 00:54:51,477
part of the Navy's process to get more 

1333
00:54:51,477 --> 00:54:53,588
people color into the officer ranks . 

1334
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:56,730
You know , As you stated Carell , 

1335
00:54:57,020 --> 00:54:59,020
that's me . Percent of our military 

1336
00:54:59,020 --> 00:55:00,964
officers , or white 8% are African 

1337
00:55:00,964 --> 00:55:04,090
American . It's even lower for Asians 

1338
00:55:04,090 --> 00:55:06,310
and Hispanics . You know , when you 

1339
00:55:06,310 --> 00:55:08,366
talk about the impact of the lack of 

1340
00:55:08,366 --> 00:55:10,588
representation in the officer ranks and 

1341
00:55:10,588 --> 00:55:12,754
how it has disparities in our military 

1342
00:55:12,754 --> 00:55:15,580
justice system . Um , and you also 

1343
00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:17,691
mentioned about , you know , the lack 

1344
00:55:17,691 --> 00:55:19,747
of in when you were in the Air Force 

1345
00:55:19,747 --> 00:55:21,802
the lack of diversity in the jack or 

1346
00:55:21,802 --> 00:55:24,400
there . But really , what do we need to 

1347
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,320
do ? Is faras recruiting goes to bring 

1348
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,070
these numbers up ? So in really well , 

1349
00:55:30,070 --> 00:55:34,030
recruiting Mawr divers officer corps 

1350
00:55:34,330 --> 00:55:36,770
really helps off this problem in the 

1351
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:38,613
criminal justice system . In the 

1352
00:55:38,613 --> 00:55:41,740
military of the the disparities , 

1353
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,820
I think , Congressman Well , I think , 

1354
00:55:47,830 --> 00:55:50,020
uh , you know , prioritizing . 

1355
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:52,981
Definitely . As you talked about that 

1356
00:55:52,981 --> 00:55:55,203
opportunity to go from a young enlisted 

1357
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,569
black service member to come . An 

1358
00:55:57,569 --> 00:55:59,510
officer How do we encourage that 

1359
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,710
process ? Uh , what are we doing to 

1360
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:04,860
make sure that the officers have 

1361
00:56:04,860 --> 00:56:07,480
mentorship that they and that is so key . 

1362
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,770
What ? How far do you progress in the 

1363
00:56:09,770 --> 00:56:12,350
jack or any other part of the 

1364
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:15,972
The service depends on who you have her 

1365
00:56:15,972 --> 00:56:18,240
mentors , And so do we have people 

1366
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:20,129
looking out for those young black 

1367
00:56:20,129 --> 00:56:22,920
officers on making sure that they can 

1368
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,698
progress ? Are they getting the 

1369
00:56:24,698 --> 00:56:27,800
opportunities to go toe professional 

1370
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,744
military education and residents , 

1371
00:56:29,744 --> 00:56:31,800
which is a key to getting promoted , 

1372
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,856
especially to the general officer of 

1373
00:56:33,856 --> 00:56:36,810
Flag officer rank on and then 

1374
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,660
making sure that that they are 

1375
00:56:39,670 --> 00:56:42,520
operating in a good environment . So 

1376
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:45,870
story just broke . Believe this weekend 

1377
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,470
about the racial problems at West Point 

1378
00:56:49,470 --> 00:56:51,581
and that the cadets there the African 

1379
00:56:51,581 --> 00:56:53,692
American gets , I believe 25% of them 

1380
00:56:53,692 --> 00:56:55,803
said that they have been subjected to 

1381
00:56:55,803 --> 00:56:58,130
racial abuse . And so we got to make 

1382
00:56:58,130 --> 00:57:00,450
sure that have the institutions that 

1383
00:57:00,450 --> 00:57:02,672
are giving us our future leaders , that 

1384
00:57:02,672 --> 00:57:04,820
the people serving and trying to get 

1385
00:57:04,820 --> 00:57:06,653
that commission are treated with 

1386
00:57:06,653 --> 00:57:07,653
respect . 

1387
00:57:10,810 --> 00:57:14,180
Miss Farrow , you know , in the 2019 

1388
00:57:14,180 --> 00:57:16,440
Geo report recommended that the Army , 

1389
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,630
navy and Coast Guard collect data such 

1390
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:20,574
as , you know , race , ethnicity , 

1391
00:57:20,574 --> 00:57:23,070
gender offensive punishment for all 

1392
00:57:23,070 --> 00:57:25,580
nonjudicial punishments . Can you 

1393
00:57:25,580 --> 00:57:27,302
elaborate on the importance of 

1394
00:57:27,302 --> 00:57:29,302
collecting this data and update the 

1395
00:57:29,302 --> 00:57:31,413
committee on the services progress in 

1396
00:57:31,413 --> 00:57:34,790
this area . Yes . 

1397
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,660
Oh , this is an area where the data was 

1398
00:57:38,660 --> 00:57:40,950
inconclusive because those three 

1399
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:42,050
services 

1400
00:57:44,510 --> 00:57:47,640
had incomplete data to determine the 

1401
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,307
extent of disparities and the 

1402
00:57:49,307 --> 00:57:51,529
nonjudicial punishments . What happened 

1403
00:57:51,529 --> 00:57:54,550
was in conducting our data reliability 

1404
00:57:54,550 --> 00:57:58,360
check . We did identify of the number 

1405
00:57:58,370 --> 00:58:01,710
of non judicial cases in the Court of 

1406
00:58:01,710 --> 00:58:03,654
Appeals for the Armed Services and 

1407
00:58:03,654 --> 00:58:06,050
reports from the school year 2013 to 

1408
00:58:06,060 --> 00:58:09,210
2017 and compared those numbers with 

1409
00:58:09,210 --> 00:58:12,520
the numbers in the services 

1410
00:58:12,770 --> 00:58:15,600
military , justice databases as well as 

1411
00:58:15,610 --> 00:58:18,660
their personal down bases . And we 

1412
00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:21,870
found that for the Army , roughly 

1413
00:58:21,870 --> 00:58:25,630
65% of the reported cases were 

1414
00:58:25,630 --> 00:58:28,870
not in there are databases , and those 

1415
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:30,981
reported cases air in the report , by 

1416
00:58:30,981 --> 00:58:33,203
the way , that goes to Congress and the 

1417
00:58:33,203 --> 00:58:36,240
Secretary of Sense . About 8% of the 

1418
00:58:36,250 --> 00:58:40,040
cases that were reported in the 

1419
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:43,060
end reports were not in the name X 

1420
00:58:43,060 --> 00:58:46,500
database , and about 82% of the cases 

1421
00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:49,450
but the Coast Guard were reported out , 

1422
00:58:49,460 --> 00:58:52,190
but not in their databases . So we made 

1423
00:58:52,190 --> 00:58:55,860
a recommendation that thes three 

1424
00:58:55,860 --> 00:58:59,810
services have complete 

1425
00:58:59,810 --> 00:59:02,340
information on non judiciary 

1426
00:59:02,340 --> 00:59:04,710
punishments after discussions with them . 

1427
00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:07,250
There were some concerns about how they 

1428
00:59:07,250 --> 00:59:09,440
would do that . So the recommendation 

1429
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,320
is actually to determine the 

1430
00:59:11,330 --> 00:59:13,600
feasibility , including the benefits 

1431
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,030
and the drawbacks of having complete 

1432
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,680
non judiciary punishment data . We know 

1433
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,500
that the Army and the Navy have moved 

1434
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:25,630
forward and decided that they want to 

1435
00:59:25,630 --> 00:59:27,852
have this information . And perhaps you 

1436
00:59:27,852 --> 00:59:30,074
could learn more about that on the next 

1437
00:59:30,074 --> 00:59:32,297
panel . The Coast Guard plans to make a 

1438
00:59:32,297 --> 00:59:34,241
decision about the feasibility and 

1439
00:59:34,241 --> 00:59:36,350
collecting such data in September of 

1440
00:59:36,350 --> 00:59:38,572
this year . All right . Thank you . Are 

1441
00:59:38,572 --> 00:59:40,200
you back ? You won't be . 

1442
00:59:44,540 --> 00:59:46,818
Thank you , Mr Cisneros . Miss Holland . 

1443
00:59:46,818 --> 00:59:49,151
Followed by Miss Trey Han . And finally , 

1444
00:59:49,151 --> 00:59:50,873
Mr Brown . Miss Holland , your 

1445
00:59:50,873 --> 00:59:53,310
recognise for five minutes . Thank you . 

1446
00:59:53,310 --> 00:59:55,532
Chair Woman to woman . I don't have any 

1447
00:59:55,532 --> 00:59:57,754
questions at this time for this panel , 

1448
00:59:58,230 --> 01:00:00,452
but I will be here for the next panel . 

1449
01:00:00,452 --> 01:00:02,870
Thank you . I yield back to you . All 

1450
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:04,981
right . Thank you . Mr a hen . You're 

1451
01:00:04,981 --> 01:00:07,820
recognized for five minutes . Uh , 

1452
01:00:07,830 --> 01:00:11,130
thank you , madam Chair . Uh , I , um 

1453
01:00:11,510 --> 01:00:13,750
so I'll just put my bias out there . I 

1454
01:00:13,750 --> 01:00:16,380
don't generally believe that it takes 

1455
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:19,900
years to change . I do believe that it 

1456
01:00:19,900 --> 01:00:21,622
happens closer to an instant , 

1457
01:00:21,622 --> 01:00:23,510
especially when we have a strong 

1458
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:25,621
culture and strong leadership , which 

1459
01:00:25,621 --> 01:00:27,399
is something I believe we pride 

1460
01:00:27,399 --> 01:00:30,440
ourselves in . Uh , so that being said , 

1461
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,780
I'll just ask the question . Um uh , 

1462
01:00:33,790 --> 01:00:35,901
toe Colonel Christian said , And Miss 

1463
01:00:35,901 --> 01:00:37,846
Farrell , do you believe convening 

1464
01:00:37,846 --> 01:00:40,012
authority should be left to commanders 

1465
01:00:40,012 --> 01:00:42,123
of you think that the current process 

1466
01:00:42,123 --> 01:00:44,179
increases the risk of unconscious or 

1467
01:00:44,179 --> 01:00:46,780
even overt bias within our military 

1468
01:00:46,780 --> 01:00:49,770
justices system ? And I'll just add my 

1469
01:00:49,770 --> 01:00:51,992
second question would be Do you believe 

1470
01:00:51,992 --> 01:00:54,048
that if the convening authority were 

1471
01:00:54,048 --> 01:00:56,270
transferred to a separatist city within 

1472
01:00:56,270 --> 01:00:58,437
the department , it could decrease the 

1473
01:00:58,437 --> 01:01:00,548
racial disparity highlighted in these 

1474
01:01:00,548 --> 01:01:04,310
reports ? Thank you for your question . 

1475
01:01:04,310 --> 01:01:07,800
While that is a core principle of mine 

1476
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,240
is that the military go become part of 

1477
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,610
the 21st century and have prosecutors 

1478
01:01:13,610 --> 01:01:16,480
make prosecution decisions versus 

1479
01:01:16,610 --> 01:01:19,860
convenient authorities . Uh uh , I 

1480
01:01:19,870 --> 01:01:22,037
think the command controlled system of 

1481
01:01:22,037 --> 01:01:24,230
military justice , as I talked about 

1482
01:01:24,230 --> 01:01:26,730
before they know the people involved , 

1483
01:01:26,740 --> 01:01:29,060
it's going to cause a bias . No matter 

1484
01:01:29,060 --> 01:01:31,171
how good the Commander is , no matter 

1485
01:01:31,171 --> 01:01:34,650
how desires they are not having a 

1486
01:01:34,650 --> 01:01:36,483
bias , they're gonna have a bias 

1487
01:01:36,483 --> 01:01:38,372
because they know the people were 

1488
01:01:38,372 --> 01:01:40,483
making , uh uh that have been alleged 

1489
01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:43,090
committed a crime . I think that bias 

1490
01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:45,201
is going to carry over throughout the 

1491
01:01:45,201 --> 01:01:47,423
process because of the way the chain of 

1492
01:01:47,423 --> 01:01:49,090
command works . If you have a 

1493
01:01:49,090 --> 01:01:51,146
convenient authorities system , they 

1494
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,033
wouldn't . You have a committing 

1495
01:01:53,033 --> 01:01:54,978
authority system . They weigh very 

1496
01:01:54,978 --> 01:01:57,089
heavily on the views of the commander 

1497
01:01:57,089 --> 01:01:59,640
who knows the people who have committed 

1498
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,610
the crime , a prosecutor based system , 

1499
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,300
which is not perfect . No system is , 

1500
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,110
but a ZAY said before , when I 

1501
01:02:08,110 --> 01:02:10,500
prosecuted a case , first time I laid 

1502
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:13,150
eyes on the accused is when I came to 

1503
01:02:13,150 --> 01:02:15,610
court , I didn't know they were . Brace 

1504
01:02:15,610 --> 01:02:17,499
wasn't an issue unless , for some 

1505
01:02:17,499 --> 01:02:19,554
reason , his identification issue as 

1506
01:02:19,554 --> 01:02:21,720
part of the report of investigation . 

1507
01:02:21,950 --> 01:02:24,330
And so I think it eliminate does not 

1508
01:02:24,330 --> 01:02:26,970
eliminate but reduces the chance that 

1509
01:02:26,980 --> 01:02:29,530
racial biases will impact the decision 

1510
01:02:29,530 --> 01:02:31,620
made by the person , citing whether 

1511
01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:34,820
case should go to trial or not . In her 

1512
01:02:34,820 --> 01:02:38,640
second question , what was your 

1513
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,584
second question ? The straight and 

1514
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,800
thanks it was if I I think Colonel 

1515
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,022
Persons answered it , but it was , If , 

1516
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,820
um , if he believes that the convening 

1517
01:02:49,820 --> 01:02:51,987
authority would transfer to a separate 

1518
01:02:51,987 --> 01:02:54,209
entity within the department , it would 

1519
01:02:54,209 --> 01:02:56,376
decrease the racial disparity . Um , I 

1520
01:02:56,376 --> 01:02:58,598
last Miss Carroll if he has anything to 

1521
01:02:58,598 --> 01:03:00,920
add . Otherwise , I do have , um Maybe 

1522
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,430
just another follow up . Go right ahead . 

1523
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:07,480
Thank you . I would say to answer your 

1524
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,560
question , we need to see DVDs 

1525
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,160
evaluation off the causes of 

1526
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,420
disparities at these different stages 

1527
01:03:14,420 --> 01:03:17,670
in order to ah , pinpoint exactly what 

1528
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,902
needs to be done in terms of correction 

1529
01:03:19,902 --> 01:03:21,902
along the lines that you're talking 

1530
01:03:21,902 --> 01:03:25,640
about that are the 

1531
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,800
commanders today who are holding 

1532
01:03:28,180 --> 01:03:29,902
convening authority . Are they 

1533
01:03:29,902 --> 01:03:31,958
receiving training on these issues ? 

1534
01:03:31,958 --> 01:03:34,069
Are Are we arming them with the tools 

1535
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:36,069
to recognize racial disparities and 

1536
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:38,080
ethnic inequity so that they may 

1537
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:41,530
address them appropriately ? Well , 

1538
01:03:41,540 --> 01:03:43,980
uh , that's probably question better 

1539
01:03:43,980 --> 01:03:47,090
for the other panel to answer . My 

1540
01:03:47,090 --> 01:03:49,640
understanding is the Air Force has said 

1541
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,290
they are now doing that . I don't know 

1542
01:03:52,340 --> 01:03:54,960
about . As the jail report found in May 

1543
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,500
of 2019 it doesn't seem like anything 

1544
01:03:57,500 --> 01:04:00,750
had been done by that time to find 

1545
01:04:00,750 --> 01:04:02,300
causes or solutions . 

1546
01:04:05,850 --> 01:04:08,270
Okay . Thank you always for Channel two . 

1547
01:04:08,420 --> 01:04:10,760
I yield back . Thank you . Mr a hen . 

1548
01:04:10,810 --> 01:04:13,380
Mr . Brown , you're recognized for five 

1549
01:04:13,380 --> 01:04:14,380
minutes . 

1550
01:04:18,590 --> 01:04:20,880
Thank you , Madam Chair . And thank you 

1551
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,170
for allowing me to waive onto this 

1552
01:04:23,250 --> 01:04:25,200
panel . I'm going to have a longer 

1553
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,200
statement to make before the second 

1554
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,390
pounds . So I just jump into some 

1555
01:04:29,390 --> 01:04:32,420
questions for a Panelist for Colonel 

1556
01:04:32,430 --> 01:04:34,541
Christiansen and Miss Farrell . Thank 

1557
01:04:34,541 --> 01:04:36,597
you for being here . I guess this is 

1558
01:04:36,597 --> 01:04:38,790
the concern I have are looking at what 

1559
01:04:38,790 --> 01:04:42,270
we did in the end . Ea that ask g a o 

1560
01:04:42,270 --> 01:04:46,080
to study this issue on then in the nd a 

1561
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:49,080
putting to the d o d to come back with 

1562
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,247
a an assessment of what the cause is . 

1563
01:04:51,247 --> 01:04:53,610
All are on . Here's the concern I have . 

1564
01:04:53,610 --> 01:04:55,943
So I need some help . Carnal Christians . 

1565
01:04:55,943 --> 01:04:58,200
And you said that you have you 

1566
01:04:58,210 --> 01:05:01,170
witnessed the case Where a black man 

1567
01:05:01,170 --> 01:05:04,240
with six a minutes late for formation , 

1568
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:06,557
He was court martialed . You never saw 

1569
01:05:06,557 --> 01:05:09,560
that with a white service member when 

1570
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,800
you talk about implicit racial bias , 

1571
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:14,612
Typically , in that case , if you would 

1572
01:05:14,612 --> 01:05:16,723
have brought to that Commander Halo , 

1573
01:05:16,890 --> 01:05:19,001
you just sent the court martial black 

1574
01:05:19,010 --> 01:05:22,360
guy . And in the last month , we've had 

1575
01:05:22,370 --> 01:05:24,950
re white guys six minutes , seven 

1576
01:05:24,950 --> 01:05:27,117
minutes , 10 minutes late . You didn't 

1577
01:05:27,117 --> 01:05:29,750
do it often with implicit bias . That 

1578
01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:31,920
commander might say Ah , wow . You're 

1579
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,310
right . let me take a look . It's often 

1580
01:05:34,310 --> 01:05:36,421
benign . It's unknown when brought to 

1581
01:05:36,421 --> 01:05:39,200
the attention of the of the offender , 

1582
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,480
if you will , they're willing to make 

1583
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,600
corrective action from everything . Mr 

1584
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,600
Christian . That's in that you said 

1585
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,420
about your efforts to get information 

1586
01:05:50,420 --> 01:05:52,960
from d o D their unwillingness toe 

1587
01:05:52,970 --> 01:05:56,800
Explore the causes of this disparate 

1588
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,200
racial impact . The military . Justin 

1589
01:05:59,570 --> 01:06:03,300
I'm concerned that in the G A o 

1590
01:06:03,310 --> 01:06:07,200
study were put into the d o d too much 

1591
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,760
responsibility to come up with 

1592
01:06:09,770 --> 01:06:11,437
guidelines for how to address 

1593
01:06:11,437 --> 01:06:14,330
disparities , discover or research the 

1594
01:06:14,330 --> 01:06:17,140
causes of disparity and develop a 

1595
01:06:17,150 --> 01:06:20,710
uniform set of of demographic criteria 

1596
01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:22,790
or classifications so we can better 

1597
01:06:22,790 --> 01:06:25,020
understand it . Here's my question . 

1598
01:06:25,290 --> 01:06:28,830
What can Congress do today to ensure 

1599
01:06:28,830 --> 01:06:31,300
that D . O . D is doing these things in 

1600
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:33,740
the jail report that gets beyond the 

1601
01:06:33,740 --> 01:06:35,700
resistance that you and your 

1602
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:37,756
organization current question should 

1603
01:06:37,756 --> 01:06:39,756
have seen What ? What ? Some what ? 

1604
01:06:39,756 --> 01:06:41,940
Some specific things that we should be 

1605
01:06:41,940 --> 01:06:45,920
doing . Well , great . Excuse me . 

1606
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,031
Great start is what we're doing right 

1607
01:06:48,031 --> 01:06:50,198
now . Uh , it's definitely putting the 

1608
01:06:50,198 --> 01:06:51,920
d o d . I noticed that this is 

1609
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,142
something Congress is concerned about , 

1610
01:06:54,142 --> 01:06:56,370
but I think Congress needs to send a 

1611
01:06:56,370 --> 01:07:00,060
message to the various services that 

1612
01:07:00,070 --> 01:07:03,060
they do not expect that this is going 

1613
01:07:03,060 --> 01:07:06,010
to be pay quick solution . So , for 

1614
01:07:06,010 --> 01:07:08,121
example , my understanding is the Air 

1615
01:07:08,121 --> 01:07:10,560
Force I G wants to have the 

1616
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,838
investigation wrapped a pied into July . 

1617
01:07:12,838 --> 01:07:15,004
That's ridiculous . You know , this is 

1618
01:07:15,004 --> 01:07:17,004
a decades long problem . You're not 

1619
01:07:17,004 --> 01:07:19,060
going to find problems and solutions 

1620
01:07:19,060 --> 01:07:22,130
and causes in two months . The second 

1621
01:07:22,130 --> 01:07:24,910
thing is that Congress needs to make 

1622
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,590
clear to the D . O . D that they expect 

1623
01:07:27,590 --> 01:07:29,812
him to be reaching the outside entities 

1624
01:07:29,812 --> 01:07:31,646
to help with the solution . True 

1625
01:07:31,646 --> 01:07:34,330
experts on disparity true experts on 

1626
01:07:34,330 --> 01:07:37,440
what causes racial buys true experts on 

1627
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,500
finding racial discrimination . And 

1628
01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:44,120
then Aziz has been required in the most 

1629
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,231
recent nd a that they continue report 

1630
01:07:46,231 --> 01:07:48,287
back to Congress with the same vigor 

1631
01:07:48,287 --> 01:07:51,090
that they do with sexual assault report 

1632
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,351
that is released each year . That has 

1633
01:07:53,351 --> 01:07:55,462
to have the same kind of detail , the 

1634
01:07:55,462 --> 01:07:57,940
same kind of depth to it , thankful 

1635
01:07:58,660 --> 01:08:02,480
this is Miss Farrell . Well , a pick 

1636
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:04,680
up where the superstars left off in 

1637
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:06,920
terms of external reporting . That's 

1638
01:08:06,930 --> 01:08:10,480
that's one of the recommendations that 

1639
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,360
we have seen progress on in terms of D 

1640
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:17,110
o d Will is expected to include 

1641
01:08:17,110 --> 01:08:19,430
because of the 2020 National Defense 

1642
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:21,920
Authorization Act duties expected to 

1643
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,350
include demographic information in its 

1644
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:26,239
annual reports going forward . So 

1645
01:08:26,239 --> 01:08:27,906
that's going to help with the 

1646
01:08:27,906 --> 01:08:30,510
transparency , but it's still quite a 

1647
01:08:30,510 --> 01:08:32,420
ways off . I think congressional 

1648
01:08:32,420 --> 01:08:34,910
oversight , periodic congressional 

1649
01:08:34,910 --> 01:08:37,640
oversight is gonna be necessary . I 

1650
01:08:37,650 --> 01:08:40,150
agree that doing an evaluation of the 

1651
01:08:40,150 --> 01:08:42,317
causes , it's not something that could 

1652
01:08:42,317 --> 01:08:44,930
be done in just a few months 

1653
01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:49,220
having a prioritizing where DV is going 

1654
01:08:49,220 --> 01:08:51,700
to look at which stages in order to get 

1655
01:08:51,710 --> 01:08:54,660
behind and also bring in consultants 

1656
01:08:54,660 --> 01:08:57,520
gonna be very important . You know , 

1657
01:08:57,530 --> 01:09:01,020
the Indy A Re Cars duty to commence the 

1658
01:09:01,020 --> 01:09:03,980
study for evaluating causes this month , 

1659
01:09:04,260 --> 01:09:06,482
there's no in day again . It's gonna be 

1660
01:09:06,482 --> 01:09:09,000
very important , I think , for the 

1661
01:09:09,010 --> 01:09:10,843
House Armed Services Committee , 

1662
01:09:10,843 --> 01:09:12,788
specifically this subcommittee and 

1663
01:09:12,788 --> 01:09:15,220
others to have you debrief or have have 

1664
01:09:15,220 --> 01:09:18,170
another hearing to understand what 

1665
01:09:18,170 --> 01:09:21,280
progress they're making toward that 

1666
01:09:21,290 --> 01:09:24,610
final report on the causes . Thank you . 

1667
01:09:24,620 --> 01:09:26,731
You back , man Chair , Thank you once 

1668
01:09:26,731 --> 01:09:28,564
again for allowing me to wave on 

1669
01:09:52,460 --> 01:09:54,740
at Special and General Court , martials 

1670
01:09:54,740 --> 01:09:56,740
remain about the same for black and 

1671
01:09:56,740 --> 01:09:58,460
white service members . Yet 

1672
01:09:58,460 --> 01:10:00,460
significantly more of Black service 

1673
01:10:00,460 --> 01:10:02,516
members are brought to court martial 

1674
01:10:02,650 --> 01:10:04,910
that appears to show two things . One 

1675
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:07,440
that court martials are not convicting 

1676
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:10,250
because of race but evidence . And to 

1677
01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:12,093
that , commanders are preferring 

1678
01:10:12,093 --> 01:10:14,204
charges on more Black service members 

1679
01:10:14,204 --> 01:10:16,580
for reasons other than the strong 

1680
01:10:16,580 --> 01:10:19,070
weight of evidence against them . I 

1681
01:10:19,070 --> 01:10:21,292
guess . Finally , let me just ask you , 

1682
01:10:21,292 --> 01:10:23,403
Is that a fair statement ? I do think 

1683
01:10:23,403 --> 01:10:25,790
that's a fair statement . Uh , I I 

1684
01:10:25,790 --> 01:10:27,734
honestly believe our court members 

1685
01:10:27,734 --> 01:10:30,940
tried to do the right thing and that I 

1686
01:10:31,020 --> 01:10:33,580
don't believe I ever saw a single panel 

1687
01:10:33,580 --> 01:10:35,810
where I thought that they were racially 

1688
01:10:35,810 --> 01:10:38,990
driven in the verdict . I do worry 

1689
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,620
again that the decision , really what 

1690
01:10:41,620 --> 01:10:45,210
we're talking about is that the White 

1691
01:10:45,210 --> 01:10:47,377
Service member gets the benefit of the 

1692
01:10:47,377 --> 01:10:49,640
doubt . Their case doesn't go for their 

1693
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:51,862
cases handled at a different level than 

1694
01:10:51,862 --> 01:10:53,918
what the Black service members are . 

1695
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:55,870
Thank you , Miss Farrell . 

1696
01:11:00,020 --> 01:11:02,131
I did not hear all of that question , 

1697
01:11:02,131 --> 01:11:04,810
but I think you were asking questions 

1698
01:11:04,810 --> 01:11:07,100
related to what Joo identified at the 

1699
01:11:07,100 --> 01:11:08,989
beginning of the military justice 

1700
01:11:08,989 --> 01:11:11,211
process of what we see at the end , and 

1701
01:11:11,211 --> 01:11:13,433
it's quite a different picture as we've 

1702
01:11:13,433 --> 01:11:17,070
discussed , actions are more likely 

1703
01:11:17,260 --> 01:11:19,840
to be identified at the very beginning 

1704
01:11:19,850 --> 01:11:22,530
of the judicial process when a service 

1705
01:11:22,530 --> 01:11:24,840
member is under investigation . Five . 

1706
01:11:24,850 --> 01:11:27,600
When we look at outcomes in terms of 

1707
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,190
convictions and punishments for 

1708
01:11:30,190 --> 01:11:32,950
convictions , we found that there was 

1709
01:11:32,950 --> 01:11:35,680
no statistically significant difference 

1710
01:11:35,690 --> 01:11:39,690
among races in terms of conviction 

1711
01:11:39,860 --> 01:11:42,500
and similar results for punishments . 

1712
01:11:42,580 --> 01:11:44,970
No statistically significant difference , 

1713
01:11:45,170 --> 01:11:48,030
except for black service members in the 

1714
01:11:48,030 --> 01:11:51,300
Navy or less likely to be dismissed or 

1715
01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:54,200
discharged after a conviction so that 

1716
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:57,820
there's the they're at opposite ends of 

1717
01:11:57,820 --> 01:11:59,987
what we see in terms of disparities in 

1718
01:11:59,987 --> 01:12:02,180
the beginning of the system and where 

1719
01:12:02,180 --> 01:12:04,660
we see them end up at the end . All 

1720
01:12:04,660 --> 01:12:06,827
right again , thank you both very much 

1721
01:12:06,827 --> 01:12:08,993
for your testimony . Will take a short 

1722
01:12:08,993 --> 01:12:11,216
recess so we can bring our second panel 

1723
01:12:11,450 --> 01:12:15,330
to the table and I'm here from 

1724
01:12:15,330 --> 01:12:16,330
them . 

1725
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:11,061
Coming . We're going to go normally . 

1726
01:15:11,061 --> 01:15:13,228
Go left , right , right . Left because 

1727
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:14,510
start small . 

1728
01:15:19,510 --> 01:15:22,920
Welcome back , everyone . We will bring 

1729
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,230
this hearing to order once again , and 

1730
01:15:25,230 --> 01:15:28,370
it's my pleasure . Now to introduce our 

1731
01:15:28,370 --> 01:15:31,890
next panel . We will start with 

1732
01:15:31,890 --> 01:15:35,100
Lieutenant General Charles PD , Judge 

1733
01:15:35,100 --> 01:15:37,433
advocate General for United States Army , 

1734
01:15:37,433 --> 01:15:39,730
followed by Vice Admiral John Han , IQ 

1735
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:42,600
Judge advocate General of the U . S . 

1736
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:45,910
Navy . Lieutenant Jeffrey , Lieutenant 

1737
01:15:45,910 --> 01:15:48,180
General Jeffrey Rockwell , Judge 

1738
01:15:48,180 --> 01:15:50,347
Advocate General for United States Air 

1739
01:15:50,347 --> 01:15:52,670
Force . And finally , Major General 

1740
01:15:53,020 --> 01:15:56,180
Daniel Lecce , the's staff judge 

1741
01:15:56,190 --> 01:15:58,079
advocate to the commandant of the 

1742
01:15:58,079 --> 01:16:00,500
Marine Corps , General OPD . We will 

1743
01:16:00,500 --> 01:16:01,500
begin with you 

1744
01:16:05,500 --> 01:16:07,722
ranking member Kelly and members of the 

1745
01:16:07,722 --> 01:16:09,444
committee . Thank you for this 

1746
01:16:09,444 --> 01:16:11,444
opportunity . I'm sorry , General . 

1747
01:16:11,444 --> 01:16:13,667
Could you move that microphone a little 

1748
01:16:13,667 --> 01:16:15,778
closer to you are Absolutely . How is 

1749
01:16:15,778 --> 01:16:17,460
that better ? Thank you . I'm 

1750
01:16:17,460 --> 01:16:19,571
Chairwoman Spear ranking Member Kelly 

1751
01:16:19,571 --> 01:16:21,627
and members of the committee . Thank 

1752
01:16:21,627 --> 01:16:23,849
you for this opportunity . We meet on a 

1753
01:16:23,849 --> 01:16:25,960
topic of vital importance to our army 

1754
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,880
and to our nation . Ensuring that every 

1755
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:30,713
soldier who swears to defend our 

1756
01:16:30,713 --> 01:16:32,870
Constitution is guaranteed its 

1757
01:16:32,870 --> 01:16:35,700
foundational promise equal , equal 

1758
01:16:35,700 --> 01:16:38,970
justice under the law . This has been 

1759
01:16:38,980 --> 01:16:41,490
my charter across 32 years of service . 

1760
01:16:41,790 --> 01:16:43,846
And it is the commitment of the Army 

1761
01:16:43,846 --> 01:16:46,012
Judge , Advocate , General's Corps and 

1762
01:16:46,012 --> 01:16:48,670
the Army leadership . As recent events 

1763
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,569
make clear , that promise remains 

1764
01:16:50,569 --> 01:16:52,680
unfilled for too many in our nation . 

1765
01:16:53,070 --> 01:16:55,320
Just two days ago , we in our army 

1766
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:58,150
celebrated its 245th birthday 

1767
01:16:59,090 --> 01:17:01,312
because of the service and sacrifice of 

1768
01:17:01,312 --> 01:17:03,430
many . I believe that today our army 

1769
01:17:03,430 --> 01:17:05,990
represents our country's best ideals 

1770
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,190
more than ever . Yet I also believe 

1771
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:11,280
that , like the country we serve , 

1772
01:17:11,290 --> 01:17:13,830
there is still much more that must be 

1773
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:17,660
done . Are hearing today reminds us of 

1774
01:17:17,660 --> 01:17:19,604
the origins of our uniform code of 

1775
01:17:19,604 --> 01:17:22,170
military justice . It was born out of a 

1776
01:17:22,170 --> 01:17:24,460
concern for fundamental fairness for 

1777
01:17:24,460 --> 01:17:26,860
those suspected of a crime . Our codes 

1778
01:17:26,860 --> 01:17:28,890
due process guarantees , zealous 

1779
01:17:28,890 --> 01:17:31,630
defense , impartial judges and robust 

1780
01:17:31,630 --> 01:17:34,240
appellate review Our it's cornerstones 

1781
01:17:34,780 --> 01:17:37,002
over the years , and thanks to the work 

1782
01:17:37,002 --> 01:17:39,130
of many on this committee , the code 

1783
01:17:39,130 --> 01:17:41,390
has been reformed and improved , while 

1784
01:17:41,390 --> 01:17:43,112
its central purposes have been 

1785
01:17:43,112 --> 01:17:45,440
preserved , promoting justice while 

1786
01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:47,440
ensuring discipline . These are the 

1787
01:17:47,440 --> 01:17:49,340
pillars upon which our combat 

1788
01:17:49,340 --> 01:17:51,510
effectiveness rests , and they're the 

1789
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:53,780
reasons why our army is the best in the 

1790
01:17:53,780 --> 01:17:56,480
world . But as good as our justice 

1791
01:17:56,480 --> 01:17:58,369
system is , we can never take for 

1792
01:17:58,369 --> 01:18:01,150
granted its health or its fairness . It 

1793
01:18:01,150 --> 01:18:04,510
requires constant care by well trained 

1794
01:18:04,510 --> 01:18:06,760
law enforcement , educated commanders 

1795
01:18:06,820 --> 01:18:09,730
and qualified attorneys . Working 

1796
01:18:09,730 --> 01:18:12,550
together with the Congress , we have 

1797
01:18:12,550 --> 01:18:14,717
brought our justice system much closer 

1798
01:18:14,717 --> 01:18:16,550
to the full realization of equal 

1799
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:19,950
justice . For all that close is never 

1800
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:22,890
good enough . In May 2019 the G A o 

1801
01:18:22,890 --> 01:18:25,112
found racial disparities in our justice 

1802
01:18:25,112 --> 01:18:27,360
system . While it reached no conclusion 

1803
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:29,430
on the causes of these disparities , 

1804
01:18:29,430 --> 01:18:31,708
this report raises difficult questions , 

1805
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,890
questions that demand answers . Sitting 

1806
01:18:34,890 --> 01:18:36,779
here today , we do not have those 

1807
01:18:36,779 --> 01:18:39,820
answers . So our task is to ask the 

1808
01:18:39,820 --> 01:18:42,430
right questions and find the answers . 

1809
01:18:42,970 --> 01:18:45,303
I'm joined by my partner in this effort , 

1810
01:18:45,303 --> 01:18:47,840
Major General , the Army's provost , 

1811
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:49,896
Marshal General , my partner in this 

1812
01:18:49,896 --> 01:18:51,896
effort , Major General Kevin Marine 

1813
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,142
General Marine supervisors are military 

1814
01:18:54,142 --> 01:18:56,960
police , our criminal investigators in 

1815
01:18:56,960 --> 01:18:59,880
our criminal laboratory based on the G . 

1816
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:01,713
A . O s findings . The effort to 

1817
01:19:01,713 --> 01:19:03,436
examine our system is a shared 

1818
01:19:03,700 --> 01:19:06,720
responsibility with us and with our 

1819
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,740
commanders . As we assess this issue , 

1820
01:19:09,740 --> 01:19:11,610
from investigations to command 

1821
01:19:11,610 --> 01:19:14,830
decisions to the disposition phase , we 

1822
01:19:14,830 --> 01:19:16,941
must do so with a common framework in 

1823
01:19:16,941 --> 01:19:19,100
the right stakeholders . That effort 

1824
01:19:19,100 --> 01:19:21,322
must start with seeing ourselves . This 

1825
01:19:21,322 --> 01:19:23,544
began last year's we began implementing 

1826
01:19:23,544 --> 01:19:25,767
the G . A . O s recommendations . We're 

1827
01:19:25,767 --> 01:19:27,989
also working with the other services to 

1828
01:19:27,989 --> 01:19:30,211
execute section 5 40 i of the N d . A . 

1829
01:19:30,211 --> 01:19:32,890
That now visionary statute directs us 

1830
01:19:32,890 --> 01:19:35,820
to identify , investigate and resolve 

1831
01:19:35,820 --> 01:19:37,770
potential disparities in justice . 

1832
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:39,960
Finally , we continue to improve our 

1833
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:42,020
internal data sharing . Recently , 

1834
01:19:42,020 --> 01:19:44,242
General Verena and I established a link 

1835
01:19:44,242 --> 01:19:46,298
between his law enforcement database 

1836
01:19:46,298 --> 01:19:48,409
and our justice database , allowing a 

1837
01:19:48,409 --> 01:19:50,131
degree of interoperability and 

1838
01:19:50,131 --> 01:19:52,298
transparency that never existed before 

1839
01:19:52,298 --> 01:19:54,520
these efforts began . Before the recent 

1840
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:56,187
tragic events in the national 

1841
01:19:56,187 --> 01:19:58,298
conversation that followed our nation 

1842
01:19:58,298 --> 01:20:00,187
or followed across our nation and 

1843
01:20:00,187 --> 01:20:01,964
within our formations . As that 

1844
01:20:01,964 --> 01:20:04,530
conversation demonstrates , data alone 

1845
01:20:04,700 --> 01:20:07,250
cannot tell the full story . We must 

1846
01:20:07,250 --> 01:20:09,083
look beyond the data and ask the 

1847
01:20:09,083 --> 01:20:11,360
difficult questions . General Marine 

1848
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,527
and I , along with Army leaders , need 

1849
01:20:13,527 --> 01:20:15,780
to look hard it ourselves with 

1850
01:20:15,780 --> 01:20:18,113
commanders . We must look at the causes , 

1851
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:20,360
and we must understand how 

1852
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:22,582
preconceptions and prejudice can affect 

1853
01:20:22,582 --> 01:20:24,900
both the investigation in disposition 

1854
01:20:24,900 --> 01:20:27,100
of misconduct . What makes your 

1855
01:20:27,110 --> 01:20:28,832
experience tells me we have an 

1856
01:20:28,832 --> 01:20:30,721
extraordinarily healthy system of 

1857
01:20:30,721 --> 01:20:32,943
justice . I also recognize we simply do 

1858
01:20:32,943 --> 01:20:35,590
not know what we do not know , and it 

1859
01:20:35,590 --> 01:20:37,479
is our job to discover what needs 

1860
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:40,530
fixing and to fix it . To do this , 

1861
01:20:40,570 --> 01:20:42,280
I've directed a comprehensive 

1862
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:44,447
assessment with the provost , Marshall 

1863
01:20:44,447 --> 01:20:47,220
General , to get left of the allegation 

1864
01:20:47,230 --> 01:20:49,940
left of the disposition decision to 

1865
01:20:49,940 --> 01:20:52,870
examine why the justice system is more 

1866
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:55,037
likely to investigate certain soldiers 

1867
01:20:55,340 --> 01:20:57,451
in what our investigations in command 

1868
01:20:57,451 --> 01:20:59,507
decisions tell us about this issue . 

1869
01:21:00,310 --> 01:21:02,366
Finally , we know that each of us is 

1870
01:21:02,366 --> 01:21:04,254
shaped by our own backgrounds and 

1871
01:21:04,254 --> 01:21:06,199
experiences as the secretary , our 

1872
01:21:06,199 --> 01:21:08,310
chief and our Sergeant Major recently 

1873
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:10,532
reminded us in which I echoed in my own 

1874
01:21:10,532 --> 01:21:12,532
message to my core . Leaders of all 

1875
01:21:12,532 --> 01:21:14,760
ranks must listen with compassion and 

1876
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,330
humility . I believe our justice system 

1877
01:21:17,330 --> 01:21:19,552
is one of the best in the world , but I 

1878
01:21:19,552 --> 01:21:21,774
also know it is not perfect . A justice 

1879
01:21:21,774 --> 01:21:25,340
system must be both just four and seem 

1880
01:21:25,340 --> 01:21:28,250
to be just by all . We have much to 

1881
01:21:28,250 --> 01:21:30,310
learn and more work to do . General 

1882
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:32,254
Verena and I , along with the Army 

1883
01:21:32,254 --> 01:21:34,310
leadership , look forward to working 

1884
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:36,421
with this committee to understand the 

1885
01:21:36,421 --> 01:21:38,643
problem and to address it . Thank you . 

1886
01:21:38,643 --> 01:21:40,810
Thank you , General PD Admiral Hammock 

1887
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:45,744
Heroines Beer ranking member Kelly 

1888
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,102
Thank you for the invitation to testify 

1889
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:50,500
on the issue of racial disparity of 

1890
01:21:50,500 --> 01:21:53,580
military Justice Department . Navy 

1891
01:21:53,580 --> 01:21:56,440
guidance emphasizes several things 

1892
01:21:56,440 --> 01:21:59,510
about equal opportunity . The first is 

1893
01:21:59,510 --> 01:22:02,220
that sailors and Marines are our most 

1894
01:22:02,220 --> 01:22:05,050
precious resource . Second , that 

1895
01:22:05,060 --> 01:22:07,020
unlawful discrimination undermines 

1896
01:22:07,020 --> 01:22:09,220
unit's ability to function effectively 

1897
01:22:09,870 --> 01:22:12,760
and cannot be tolerated . And third , 

1898
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,190
that we must overcome any bias or any 

1899
01:22:15,190 --> 01:22:18,530
stereotype that diminishes cohesiveness . 

1900
01:22:19,070 --> 01:22:22,870
Camaraderie for morale . In a 

1901
01:22:22,870 --> 01:22:24,981
recent message to the fleet . Emerald 

1902
01:22:24,981 --> 01:22:27,314
Gil Day , the chief of naval operations , 

1903
01:22:27,314 --> 01:22:30,930
commented on this , he said , In the 

1904
01:22:30,930 --> 01:22:32,930
Navy , we talk a lot about treating 

1905
01:22:32,930 --> 01:22:35,240
people with dignity and respect . In 

1906
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:37,900
fact , we demand it . It's one of the 

1907
01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:41,510
things that makes us a great navy and 

1908
01:22:41,510 --> 01:22:43,930
then observing recent events in our 

1909
01:22:43,930 --> 01:22:47,620
nation , Emerald Guilty added . We 

1910
01:22:47,620 --> 01:22:49,787
can't be under any illusions about the 

1911
01:22:49,787 --> 01:22:53,290
fact that racism is alive and well in 

1912
01:22:53,290 --> 01:22:56,110
our country , and I can't be under any 

1913
01:22:56,110 --> 01:22:59,030
illusions that we don't have it in or 

1914
01:22:59,030 --> 01:23:02,910
Navy . We cannot have those illusions . 

1915
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:05,873
And so the Navy emphatically and 

1916
01:23:05,873 --> 01:23:09,070
unequivocally denounces racism . It is 

1917
01:23:09,070 --> 01:23:11,380
anti technical toe , our core values of 

1918
01:23:11,380 --> 01:23:15,190
honor , courage and commitment . It is 

1919
01:23:15,190 --> 01:23:17,210
antithetical to our obligation of 

1920
01:23:17,210 --> 01:23:19,980
service members to support and defend 

1921
01:23:19,980 --> 01:23:22,600
the Constitution and to help protect 

1922
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,120
the rights afforded to all Americans . 

1923
01:23:26,930 --> 01:23:28,763
The military justice system must 

1924
01:23:28,763 --> 01:23:30,910
operate without discrimination . 

1925
01:23:31,500 --> 01:23:35,000
Without racism , all sailors must to be 

1926
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:37,222
able to have confidence in the fairness 

1927
01:23:37,222 --> 01:23:41,010
of the system . The May 2019 Geo report 

1928
01:23:41,020 --> 01:23:43,187
identified some disparities related to 

1929
01:23:43,187 --> 01:23:47,140
race and ethnicity to summarize those 

1930
01:23:47,290 --> 01:23:50,430
that were identified for the navy black 

1931
01:23:50,430 --> 01:23:52,380
sailors , more likely than whites 

1932
01:23:52,380 --> 01:23:54,158
sailors to be the subject of an 

1933
01:23:54,158 --> 01:23:56,700
investigation in the database used by 

1934
01:23:56,700 --> 01:23:58,533
the Naval Criminal Investigative 

1935
01:23:58,533 --> 01:24:00,790
Service and other Navy law enforcement 

1936
01:24:00,870 --> 01:24:03,980
elements , the same for Hispanic 

1937
01:24:04,170 --> 01:24:07,070
service members . Black sailors were 

1938
01:24:07,070 --> 01:24:09,292
also more likely than whites sailors to 

1939
01:24:09,292 --> 01:24:11,780
be tried by a general or special court 

1940
01:24:11,780 --> 01:24:15,370
martial . So we're Hispanic sailors . 

1941
01:24:16,590 --> 01:24:18,740
When it came to assessing the results 

1942
01:24:18,750 --> 01:24:21,130
of court martial , there was no 

1943
01:24:21,130 --> 01:24:23,074
significant difference between the 

1944
01:24:23,074 --> 01:24:25,320
conviction rates for black , Hispanic 

1945
01:24:25,330 --> 01:24:28,440
or white sailor's . And as the GL 

1946
01:24:28,440 --> 01:24:31,930
witness noted on the last panel for 

1947
01:24:31,930 --> 01:24:34,152
those found guilty , black sailors were 

1948
01:24:34,152 --> 01:24:36,208
less likely than whites . Sailors to 

1949
01:24:36,208 --> 01:24:38,430
receive the punishment , have discharge 

1950
01:24:38,430 --> 01:24:42,340
or dismissal . The jail was correct 

1951
01:24:42,580 --> 01:24:44,413
that there may be disparities at 

1952
01:24:44,413 --> 01:24:46,469
different points in the system , and 

1953
01:24:46,469 --> 01:24:48,691
and we appreciate the recommendations . 

1954
01:24:48,691 --> 01:24:51,520
They made toe help when those air 

1955
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:53,409
combined with the requirements of 

1956
01:24:53,409 --> 01:24:57,310
Section 5 40 i of the F y 20 nd a . My 

1957
01:24:57,310 --> 01:24:59,430
hope is that will result in improved 

1958
01:24:59,430 --> 01:25:02,430
data collection a process to determine 

1959
01:25:02,430 --> 01:25:05,300
when that data should be reviewed and 

1960
01:25:05,300 --> 01:25:08,600
an evaluation to identify the causes of 

1961
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,490
the disparities they're regarding data 

1962
01:25:11,490 --> 01:25:13,830
collection . The Navy and Marine Corps 

1963
01:25:13,830 --> 01:25:16,052
case management system has been updated 

1964
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:18,390
to collect the race , ethnicity and 

1965
01:25:18,390 --> 01:25:20,557
gender of victims and accused for each 

1966
01:25:20,557 --> 01:25:24,080
general and special court martial . I 

1967
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,220
have more work to do in two areas . The 

1968
01:25:27,220 --> 01:25:29,442
first relates to summary courts martial 

1969
01:25:30,190 --> 01:25:32,370
because the Navy prosecution office is 

1970
01:25:32,370 --> 01:25:35,110
also often or not involved directly in 

1971
01:25:35,110 --> 01:25:37,340
the summary courts martial , and we are 

1972
01:25:37,340 --> 01:25:39,580
reviewing procedures needed to collect 

1973
01:25:39,580 --> 01:25:42,890
the associated data . And as the J . A 

1974
01:25:42,890 --> 01:25:45,380
witness observed , the second relates 

1975
01:25:45,380 --> 01:25:47,710
to nonjudicial punishment . They 

1976
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:50,010
recommended the Navy consider how we 

1977
01:25:50,010 --> 01:25:52,121
might maintain nonjudicial punishment 

1978
01:25:52,121 --> 01:25:54,480
information in a database and how to 

1979
01:25:54,480 --> 01:25:56,591
implement this recommendation remains 

1980
01:25:56,591 --> 01:26:00,030
under review . The Navy is also taking 

1981
01:26:00,030 --> 01:26:02,160
steps to prevent racial bias through 

1982
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,990
training . This is not a panacea , but 

1983
01:26:05,990 --> 01:26:09,030
we can't let up . The Naval Leadership 

1984
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:11,141
in Ethics Center provides training on 

1985
01:26:11,141 --> 01:26:12,974
unconscious bias for prospective 

1986
01:26:12,974 --> 01:26:14,752
commanding officers , executive 

1987
01:26:14,752 --> 01:26:18,370
officers and other leaders . The Naval 

1988
01:26:18,370 --> 01:26:20,481
Criminal Investigative Service trains 

1989
01:26:20,481 --> 01:26:22,980
agents on diversity and inclusion on 

1990
01:26:22,980 --> 01:26:25,200
unconscious bias and cross cultural 

1991
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:27,740
communications to prevent racial 

1992
01:26:27,740 --> 01:26:31,570
profiling in investigations . We also 

1993
01:26:31,570 --> 01:26:33,681
provided training on unconscious bias 

1994
01:26:33,681 --> 01:26:36,170
and inclusion and diversity within the 

1995
01:26:36,170 --> 01:26:37,892
Judge . Africa Journalist Core 

1996
01:26:37,892 --> 01:26:41,660
Community . The Navy is committed to 

1997
01:26:41,660 --> 01:26:43,882
ensuring the military justice system is 

1998
01:26:43,882 --> 01:26:47,010
fair for everyone . Now look forward to 

1999
01:26:47,010 --> 01:26:49,360
working with you to improve our data 

2000
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:52,490
collection and to identify , understand 

2001
01:26:52,490 --> 01:26:54,900
and address these disparities . Thank 

2002
01:26:54,900 --> 01:26:56,900
you . Thank you , Admiral . Panic . 

2003
01:26:57,230 --> 01:27:00,100
General Rockwell . Madam Chair Spirit . 

2004
01:27:00,940 --> 01:27:02,440
Thank . Remember , Kelly . 

2005
01:27:02,440 --> 01:27:04,496
Distinguished members . Thank you so 

2006
01:27:04,496 --> 01:27:06,718
much for the opportunity to address the 

2007
01:27:06,718 --> 01:27:08,551
importance of eradicating racial 

2008
01:27:08,551 --> 01:27:10,440
disparity in our military justice 

2009
01:27:10,440 --> 01:27:12,551
system to ensure fairness , inclusion 

2010
01:27:12,551 --> 01:27:14,551
and diversity for all air and space 

2011
01:27:14,551 --> 01:27:16,551
professionals in the department Air 

2012
01:27:16,551 --> 01:27:18,940
Force , an inclusive and diverse force 

2013
01:27:19,230 --> 01:27:21,730
is absolutely necessary to defend a 

2014
01:27:21,730 --> 01:27:24,420
diverse and inclusive nation . Like 

2015
01:27:24,420 --> 01:27:26,587
many of our civilian counterparts , we 

2016
01:27:26,587 --> 01:27:28,642
collect data on race in the military 

2017
01:27:28,642 --> 01:27:30,753
justice process . Our data shows that 

2018
01:27:30,753 --> 01:27:33,330
black male airman below the rank of e 

2019
01:27:33,330 --> 01:27:35,750
five and with less than five years , 

2020
01:27:35,750 --> 01:27:38,220
time and service are almost two times 

2021
01:27:38,220 --> 01:27:40,250
more likely to receive nonjudicial 

2022
01:27:40,250 --> 01:27:43,600
punishment on Article 15 or face courts 

2023
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:46,150
martial . While we review specific 

2024
01:27:46,150 --> 01:27:48,520
cases to ensure there is not the spirit 

2025
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:51,250
treatment based on protected class , we 

2026
01:27:51,250 --> 01:27:53,417
don't have clear answers or underlying 

2027
01:27:53,417 --> 01:27:56,600
reasons as to why the disparity exists . 

2028
01:27:57,180 --> 01:27:59,291
Like all difficult issues that nation 

2029
01:27:59,291 --> 01:28:01,220
faces solutions to address that 

2030
01:28:01,220 --> 01:28:03,640
disparity will require a whole of 

2031
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,800
government and societal approaches . We 

2032
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,022
are committed to working with you to be 

2033
01:28:09,022 --> 01:28:11,150
part of that solution throughout our 

2034
01:28:11,150 --> 01:28:13,372
history . We have defended the nation , 

2035
01:28:13,372 --> 01:28:15,594
fought and won our wars because of four 

2036
01:28:15,594 --> 01:28:18,050
simple yet key components . First , the 

2037
01:28:18,050 --> 01:28:20,460
best people second , the best training . 

2038
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:22,816
Third , the best equipment and forth 

2039
01:28:22,816 --> 01:28:24,927
The most important element that binds 

2040
01:28:24,927 --> 01:28:28,000
us together . Discipline , discipline 

2041
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:30,056
lies at the heart of with the nation 

2042
01:28:30,056 --> 01:28:31,778
expects of its military in the 

2043
01:28:31,778 --> 01:28:33,667
execution of our national defense 

2044
01:28:33,667 --> 01:28:35,889
missions . Discipline must be developed 

2045
01:28:35,889 --> 01:28:38,340
from Day one . Discipline must also be 

2046
01:28:38,350 --> 01:28:41,260
earned by the military establishment by 

2047
01:28:41,260 --> 01:28:43,093
treating all of our members with 

2048
01:28:43,093 --> 01:28:44,816
dignity and respect with equal 

2049
01:28:44,816 --> 01:28:47,010
opportunity to meet and exceed 

2050
01:28:47,010 --> 01:28:49,420
standards . We try to do that through 

2051
01:28:49,420 --> 01:28:51,930
inclusion , feedback , mentoring , 

2052
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,140
along with the administration of 

2053
01:28:54,140 --> 01:28:56,710
progressive discipline . When airman 

2054
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:59,950
make mistakes before they become a 

2055
01:28:59,950 --> 01:29:02,310
disciplinary statistic . As our 

2056
01:29:02,310 --> 01:29:04,477
secretary and chiefs recently stated , 

2057
01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:07,890
our diversity strengthens us as much as 

2058
01:29:07,900 --> 01:29:10,530
our common mission unifies us , the 

2059
01:29:10,530 --> 01:29:12,641
department Air Force strives to false 

2060
01:29:12,641 --> 01:29:14,770
foster a culture of inclusion and 

2061
01:29:14,770 --> 01:29:17,270
respect where every airman and space 

2062
01:29:17,270 --> 01:29:19,510
professional is valued for the talents 

2063
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:21,576
he or she brings to the department , 

2064
01:29:21,790 --> 01:29:24,710
regardless of race , color or creed , 

2065
01:29:25,470 --> 01:29:27,581
our struggle against racism and other 

2066
01:29:27,581 --> 01:29:29,470
forms of discrimination cannot be 

2067
01:29:29,470 --> 01:29:31,710
viewed as finite battles . Rather , our 

2068
01:29:31,710 --> 01:29:34,030
approach must be infinite a constant 

2069
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,220
struggle for betterment . When 

2070
01:29:36,220 --> 01:29:38,442
President Truman signed Executive Order 

2071
01:29:38,442 --> 01:29:41,930
9981 in 1948 he set in motion racial 

2072
01:29:41,930 --> 01:29:44,680
integration of our armed forces . 25 

2073
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,350
years later , in 1972 Task Force found 

2074
01:29:47,620 --> 01:29:50,210
intentional and systemic discrimination 

2075
01:29:50,480 --> 01:29:52,840
in the military justice system . Many 

2076
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:54,960
of the proposals identified then were 

2077
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,470
adopted today . While we believe that 

2078
01:29:57,470 --> 01:29:59,290
we no longer have intentional 

2079
01:29:59,290 --> 01:30:01,530
discrimination in our processes , the 

2080
01:30:01,530 --> 01:30:04,240
fact is that racial disparity in the 

2081
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:07,280
aggregate persists . This demonstrates 

2082
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:09,391
the complex and challenging nature of 

2083
01:30:09,391 --> 01:30:11,502
the issue , symptomatic or indicative 

2084
01:30:11,502 --> 01:30:13,558
of one of many symptoms . A daunting 

2085
01:30:13,558 --> 01:30:16,070
problem , but one that should not stop 

2086
01:30:16,070 --> 01:30:18,820
us from exploring what we can do in the 

2087
01:30:18,820 --> 01:30:21,330
disciplinary process to service part of 

2088
01:30:21,330 --> 01:30:23,810
the solution set addressing it requires 

2089
01:30:23,810 --> 01:30:26,370
a holistic approach Every day across 

2090
01:30:26,370 --> 01:30:28,426
the continuum of discipline , we are 

2091
01:30:28,426 --> 01:30:30,950
committed to finding new solutions and 

2092
01:30:30,950 --> 01:30:33,670
approaches every air and space 

2093
01:30:33,670 --> 01:30:35,726
professional , military and civilian 

2094
01:30:35,726 --> 01:30:37,948
from the most senior to the most Junior 

2095
01:30:38,140 --> 01:30:40,270
is responsible for fostering and 

2096
01:30:40,270 --> 01:30:42,530
reinforcing a culture of inclusion , 

2097
01:30:42,940 --> 01:30:45,780
dignity and respect . Like everything 

2098
01:30:45,780 --> 01:30:48,002
we do in the military . This requires a 

2099
01:30:48,002 --> 01:30:50,169
team effort , especially to get to the 

2100
01:30:50,169 --> 01:30:52,590
root causes of this difficult problem 

2101
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:56,040
we can frame an approach by asking 

2102
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:59,890
ourselves four juxtaposing questions 

2103
01:31:00,550 --> 01:31:03,680
First , While easy to say , our data 

2104
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:05,990
merely reflects or is perhaps better 

2105
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:08,101
than the society from where we come , 

2106
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:11,280
what can we do in the armed services ? 

2107
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:13,640
Second , while easy to say , the 

2108
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,320
specific cases show no actual disparate 

2109
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,700
treatment in the decision made , are we 

2110
01:31:19,700 --> 01:31:21,850
really including mentoring and 

2111
01:31:21,850 --> 01:31:23,906
administering progressive discipline 

2112
01:31:23,910 --> 01:31:27,020
equally toe all before they become an 

2113
01:31:27,020 --> 01:31:30,180
Article 15 or a court martial ? Third , 

2114
01:31:30,860 --> 01:31:33,160
while easy to say , justice was color 

2115
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:36,930
blind in each of the cases are there 

2116
01:31:36,940 --> 01:31:38,884
administrative and substantive due 

2117
01:31:38,884 --> 01:31:41,310
processes which are discriminatory in 

2118
01:31:41,310 --> 01:31:44,480
treatment or impact . And fourth , 

2119
01:31:44,590 --> 01:31:46,900
finally , while easy to say , the data 

2120
01:31:46,900 --> 01:31:48,980
shows that the aggregate disparity 

2121
01:31:48,990 --> 01:31:52,230
disappears after the 1st 5 years in the 

2122
01:31:52,230 --> 01:31:56,030
force . What can we do to eradicate 

2123
01:31:56,030 --> 01:31:59,010
that disparity earlier and all together , 

2124
01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:01,960
we look forward to working with the 

2125
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:04,127
subcommittee on this very on this most 

2126
01:32:04,127 --> 01:32:06,670
important issue . Thank you . General 

2127
01:32:06,670 --> 01:32:08,300
Rockwell General Election , 

2128
01:32:11,450 --> 01:32:13,672
Madam Chair Spare ranking member Kali , 

2129
01:32:14,090 --> 01:32:16,201
Members of the Military Personnel Sub 

2130
01:32:16,201 --> 01:32:18,368
Committee Thank you for the invitation 

2131
01:32:18,368 --> 01:32:20,423
to represent the Marine Corps on the 

2132
01:32:20,423 --> 01:32:22,479
issue of racial disparity within the 

2133
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:24,646
military justice system . Marine Corps 

2134
01:32:24,646 --> 01:32:26,534
is dedicated to ensuring equality 

2135
01:32:26,534 --> 01:32:28,479
throughout its ranks from the most 

2136
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:30,423
junior Marine . Through our senior 

2137
01:32:30,423 --> 01:32:32,479
leadership , although we have come a 

2138
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:34,646
long way , we recognize that much must 

2139
01:32:34,646 --> 01:32:36,923
must must be done . Several months ago , 

2140
01:32:36,923 --> 01:32:39,090
the commandant sought a way forward to 

2141
01:32:39,090 --> 01:32:40,923
remove the public display of the 

2142
01:32:40,923 --> 01:32:42,923
Confederate battle flag from Marine 

2143
01:32:42,923 --> 01:32:44,868
Corps installations because of its 

2144
01:32:44,868 --> 01:32:46,979
divisiveness in association with hate 

2145
01:32:46,979 --> 01:32:49,290
and discrimination . Three weeks ago , 

2146
01:32:49,310 --> 01:32:51,254
the Marine Corps issued a specific 

2147
01:32:51,254 --> 01:32:53,310
direction to the fleet to remove the 

2148
01:32:53,310 --> 01:32:55,532
Confederate battle flag from all Marine 

2149
01:32:55,532 --> 01:32:57,699
Corps installations across the globe . 

2150
01:32:57,980 --> 01:32:59,924
In his message to the Marine Corps 

2151
01:32:59,924 --> 01:33:02,091
regarding the Confederate battle flags 

2152
01:33:02,091 --> 01:33:04,202
removal comment , I stated Quote only 

2153
01:33:04,202 --> 01:33:05,820
as a unified force free of 

2154
01:33:05,820 --> 01:33:08,650
discrimination , racial inequality and 

2155
01:33:08,650 --> 01:33:10,761
prejudice come before demonstrate our 

2156
01:33:10,761 --> 01:33:12,890
core values and serve as the elite 

2157
01:33:12,900 --> 01:33:15,160
warfighting organization America 

2158
01:33:15,170 --> 01:33:18,640
requires and expects us to be . To that 

2159
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:20,696
end , the commandant is committed to 

2160
01:33:20,696 --> 01:33:22,862
implementing the fighting's of the G A 

2161
01:33:22,862 --> 01:33:25,530
O before disparities . The Geo 

2162
01:33:25,530 --> 01:33:27,710
highlighted in our administration of 

2163
01:33:27,710 --> 01:33:29,932
the justice system and the Marine Corps 

2164
01:33:29,932 --> 01:33:32,410
require immediate scrutiny and demand 

2165
01:33:32,410 --> 01:33:34,990
action . The implicit trust Marines 

2166
01:33:34,990 --> 01:33:36,823
place in one either makes Yellen 

2167
01:33:36,823 --> 01:33:39,800
elimination of racial inequality and 

2168
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:42,680
imperative as the common not stated any 

2169
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:44,847
form of racial inequality , whether it 

2170
01:33:44,847 --> 01:33:47,990
be direct , indirect , intentional or 

2171
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:50,600
unintentional threatens the cohesion of 

2172
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:52,822
Marine Corps and must be addressed head 

2173
01:33:52,822 --> 01:33:54,820
on . The Geo published two 

2174
01:33:54,820 --> 01:33:56,987
recommendations specifically addressed 

2175
01:33:57,140 --> 01:34:00,740
to the apartment that Navy First . They 

2176
01:34:00,750 --> 01:34:02,917
recommended the highlight the need for 

2177
01:34:02,917 --> 01:34:05,139
our personnel investigation in military 

2178
01:34:05,139 --> 01:34:07,250
justice databases to use standardized 

2179
01:34:07,250 --> 01:34:09,910
data related to race , ethnicity and 

2180
01:34:09,910 --> 01:34:13,480
gender . Second and similarly focused 

2181
01:34:13,480 --> 01:34:15,480
on standardized data collection for 

2182
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:17,500
nonjudicial punishments in summary 

2183
01:34:17,500 --> 01:34:19,810
courts martial . My written statement 

2184
01:34:19,810 --> 01:34:21,921
provides in greater detail the Marine 

2185
01:34:21,921 --> 01:34:23,810
Corps specific actions Intentions 

2186
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,587
stemming from the G . A . O s 

2187
01:34:25,587 --> 01:34:27,690
recommendations improved at a 

2188
01:34:27,690 --> 01:34:29,990
collection brought about by changes 

2189
01:34:29,990 --> 01:34:31,860
within last year will help us to 

2190
01:34:31,860 --> 01:34:33,916
collectively in comparatively assess 

2191
01:34:33,916 --> 01:34:36,280
data to identify racial and ethnic 

2192
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:39,010
disparities . But we will not wait for 

2193
01:34:39,010 --> 01:34:40,843
better data to address and fight 

2194
01:34:40,843 --> 01:34:43,420
inequality . Now , how we train , 

2195
01:34:43,430 --> 01:34:45,541
educate and foster Marines within our 

2196
01:34:45,541 --> 01:34:47,520
core is paramount to ensuring the 

2197
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:49,980
equality across are fighting force and 

2198
01:34:49,980 --> 01:34:52,036
within the military justice system . 

2199
01:34:52,540 --> 01:34:54,540
Training and education serve as the 

2200
01:34:54,540 --> 01:34:56,920
fundamental components of eliminating 

2201
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,160
racial buys . To this end , the Marine 

2202
01:34:59,160 --> 01:35:01,820
Corps pursuing inclusion of unconscious 

2203
01:35:01,820 --> 01:35:04,870
bias training curriculum at every level , 

2204
01:35:04,870 --> 01:35:07,180
professional development perspective 

2205
01:35:07,180 --> 01:35:09,400
commanders and senior enlisted leaders 

2206
01:35:09,500 --> 01:35:11,700
received training on bias awareness to 

2207
01:35:11,700 --> 01:35:13,890
the Marine Corps University . Junior 

2208
01:35:13,890 --> 01:35:15,946
Marines received comparable training 

2209
01:35:15,946 --> 01:35:18,350
from small unit leadership . Even our 

2210
01:35:18,350 --> 01:35:20,880
military justice have undergone similar 

2211
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:22,991
training on unconscious bodies within 

2212
01:35:22,991 --> 01:35:25,680
the past year . Such training and 

2213
01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:28,270
decisive senior leader action such as 

2214
01:35:28,270 --> 01:35:30,437
the Confederate Battle flags removal , 

2215
01:35:30,437 --> 01:35:32,214
may not resolve the disparities 

2216
01:35:32,214 --> 01:35:34,159
overnight , but our commitment and 

2217
01:35:34,159 --> 01:35:36,103
determination to ensuring equality 

2218
01:35:36,103 --> 01:35:38,400
among the range marine steadfast and 

2219
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:40,289
enduring . Thank you . And I look 

2220
01:35:40,289 --> 01:35:42,289
forward to working with you on this 

2221
01:35:42,289 --> 01:35:45,980
important issue . Thank you , General 

2222
01:35:45,980 --> 01:35:47,702
Lecce . Thank you all for your 

2223
01:35:47,702 --> 01:35:50,450
testimony . I'd like to start by asking 

2224
01:35:50,460 --> 01:35:54,060
a simple question on transparency We 

2225
01:35:54,060 --> 01:35:57,720
work for the public and the 

2226
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,510
fact that General Rockwell 

2227
01:36:01,670 --> 01:36:05,010
you fought the foyer requests from 

2228
01:36:05,010 --> 01:36:07,470
protect our defenders for over three 

2229
01:36:07,470 --> 01:36:10,510
years is deeply troubling to me . 

2230
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:14,840
Especially when it 

2231
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:17,480
was said by the judge that this Waas , 

2232
01:36:17,790 --> 01:36:20,550
um on the the aftermath of the Air 

2233
01:36:20,550 --> 01:36:23,290
Force manpower found that racial 

2234
01:36:23,290 --> 01:36:26,220
disparities are consistent , persistent 

2235
01:36:26,260 --> 01:36:29,370
and getting worse . And the judge then 

2236
01:36:29,370 --> 01:36:31,940
said when they attempted to get 

2237
01:36:31,940 --> 01:36:34,051
information about what you were doing 

2238
01:36:34,051 --> 01:36:36,830
about that and you refuse the judge 

2239
01:36:36,830 --> 01:36:38,886
that this was an exercise which went 

2240
01:36:38,886 --> 01:36:41,790
nowhere . So tell me , and the American 

2241
01:36:41,790 --> 01:36:45,790
people . What was what was , um 

2242
01:36:46,330 --> 01:36:49,110
who has benefited by not being 

2243
01:36:49,110 --> 01:36:51,460
forthright in complying with the FOIA 

2244
01:36:51,460 --> 01:36:55,450
request ? Madam Chair Aziz , you 

2245
01:36:55,450 --> 01:36:57,700
know , with for you . And you know the 

2246
01:36:57,700 --> 01:36:59,867
exemptions under FOIA . And you know , 

2247
01:36:59,867 --> 01:37:01,978
in this case which for your exemption 

2248
01:37:01,978 --> 01:37:04,450
was was invoked here it was the 

2249
01:37:04,450 --> 01:37:06,672
deliberative process . Pre decisional . 

2250
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:08,980
Yeah , but that's always used when 

2251
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:11,230
people don't want to comply with for 

2252
01:37:11,230 --> 01:37:13,600
you and when . Yes , man . And when we 

2253
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:17,170
looked at the underlying root causes , 

2254
01:37:17,630 --> 01:37:20,770
of course the data was was released and 

2255
01:37:20,780 --> 01:37:23,050
the data showed exactly what you 

2256
01:37:23,050 --> 01:37:25,290
explained . The underlying reason . The 

2257
01:37:25,290 --> 01:37:28,790
root causes of the 11 or 12 

2258
01:37:28,790 --> 01:37:30,957
people on the working group there were 

2259
01:37:30,957 --> 01:37:33,068
11 or 12 different answers as to what 

2260
01:37:33,068 --> 01:37:36,700
that root cause waas and that truly man 

2261
01:37:36,710 --> 01:37:40,450
did fall into why we protect that . 

2262
01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:43,198
Except you didn't do anything about it . 

2263
01:37:43,198 --> 01:37:45,580
That's the problem . You you stand up 

2264
01:37:45,580 --> 01:37:48,660
this Air Force manpower to do this 

2265
01:37:48,660 --> 01:37:50,710
evaluation , they come back with a 

2266
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:52,387
pretty compelling statement , 

2267
01:37:52,387 --> 01:37:54,510
consistent , persistent and getting 

2268
01:37:54,510 --> 01:37:56,640
worse . And then you do nothing about 

2269
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:59,810
it . How is that deliberative ? Well , 

2270
01:37:59,810 --> 01:38:03,260
the it was it is consistent and has 

2271
01:38:03,260 --> 01:38:05,316
been since we've been collecting the 

2272
01:38:05,316 --> 01:38:07,149
data since 72 . It is persistent 

2273
01:38:07,149 --> 01:38:09,770
because it is consistent . A sfar . Is 

2274
01:38:09,770 --> 01:38:11,881
it getting worse ? It has pretty much 

2275
01:38:11,881 --> 01:38:13,992
stayed the same , at least in the Air 

2276
01:38:13,992 --> 01:38:17,440
Force across across this time . But one 

2277
01:38:17,440 --> 01:38:20,430
thing that we do know in the air forces 

2278
01:38:20,620 --> 01:38:24,300
to create this this zone of innovation , 

2279
01:38:24,300 --> 01:38:26,810
this this creative problem solving 

2280
01:38:26,810 --> 01:38:29,260
these creative solutions , you have to 

2281
01:38:29,260 --> 01:38:32,570
give people man the ability to to 

2282
01:38:32,940 --> 01:38:34,890
really just look at this issue in 

2283
01:38:34,900 --> 01:38:37,122
different ways . But I agree with you . 

2284
01:38:37,122 --> 01:38:39,580
I'm gonna move on . Thank you . Um , 

2285
01:38:40,230 --> 01:38:42,910
Admiral Han IQ . The request for forya . 

2286
01:38:43,140 --> 01:38:45,700
The request was from , I think 2006 to 

2287
01:38:45,700 --> 01:38:48,430
2015 . You provided only 

2288
01:38:49,220 --> 01:38:52,630
information and data from 2014 and 15 . 

2289
01:38:52,870 --> 01:38:56,490
Why did you not provide the entire 

2290
01:38:56,490 --> 01:38:59,000
request , Madam Chair , I'll have to 

2291
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:01,222
take that question . For the record , I 

2292
01:39:01,222 --> 01:39:03,333
know that we switched case management 

2293
01:39:03,333 --> 01:39:06,460
systems in about 2014 and I think it 

2294
01:39:06,470 --> 01:39:10,020
likely was dealing with the data and 

2295
01:39:10,020 --> 01:39:12,131
the amount of good data that we could 

2296
01:39:12,131 --> 01:39:14,353
deliver . But I'll get back to you with 

2297
01:39:14,353 --> 01:39:16,076
the final answer . All right . 

2298
01:39:16,076 --> 01:39:18,131
Protector defenders , when they came 

2299
01:39:18,131 --> 01:39:20,298
out with a report , found that the Air 

2300
01:39:20,298 --> 01:39:23,850
Force was 71% more likely to 

2301
01:39:23,980 --> 01:39:27,680
have black hair . Man 

2302
01:39:28,220 --> 01:39:31,070
face court martial than whites . Army 

2303
01:39:31,070 --> 01:39:34,250
was 61% . Navy was 40% . Marine Corps 

2304
01:39:34,250 --> 01:39:38,240
was 32% . Did any of you reach out to 

2305
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:40,790
protect our defenders to find out more 

2306
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:44,580
about their study or how 

2307
01:39:44,580 --> 01:39:47,080
they could be helpful to you in dealing 

2308
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:49,120
with this problem ? Shannon OPD , 

2309
01:39:52,100 --> 01:39:54,350
ma'am , I can't say today that I know 

2310
01:39:54,350 --> 01:39:56,710
specifically what what communications 

2311
01:39:56,710 --> 01:40:00,340
we had with pod during that time . I 

2312
01:40:00,340 --> 01:40:02,562
can get that answer back to you , but I 

2313
01:40:02,562 --> 01:40:04,673
can't say right now . Do you have any 

2314
01:40:04,673 --> 01:40:06,784
intention of working with them moving 

2315
01:40:06,784 --> 01:40:09,007
forward ? Man , we've We've talked with 

2316
01:40:09,007 --> 01:40:11,173
pod . We've digested their materials . 

2317
01:40:11,173 --> 01:40:13,340
We've used it . Teoh , inform us . But 

2318
01:40:13,340 --> 01:40:15,830
I think we also spent a fair amount of 

2319
01:40:15,830 --> 01:40:17,886
time , extensive amount of time with 

2320
01:40:17,886 --> 01:40:20,140
Joo and its data requests as well . So 

2321
01:40:20,890 --> 01:40:23,990
we have a lot of people asking us for 

2322
01:40:23,990 --> 01:40:27,360
information . Eso we provide as best we 

2323
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:29,730
can and certainly in accordance with 

2324
01:40:29,730 --> 01:40:32,940
the rules what we should provide to not 

2325
01:40:32,940 --> 01:40:34,773
only private organizations , but 

2326
01:40:34,773 --> 01:40:36,884
certainly thank you . I'm running out 

2327
01:40:36,884 --> 01:40:38,910
of time , Admiral . Panic . Did you 

2328
01:40:38,910 --> 01:40:41,210
reach out to pod toe ? Learn more about 

2329
01:40:41,210 --> 01:40:43,154
their process or how they might be 

2330
01:40:43,300 --> 01:40:45,360
helpful . Man , I'm sure I did not , 

2331
01:40:45,470 --> 01:40:47,470
but I don't know is if anybody from 

2332
01:40:47,470 --> 01:40:49,620
organization did . But I wish I had 

2333
01:40:49,620 --> 01:40:52,510
acted earlier . Thank you , General 

2334
01:40:52,510 --> 01:40:56,300
Rockwell . No , ma'am . Way are very 

2335
01:40:56,300 --> 01:40:58,244
much looking forward , though , to 

2336
01:40:58,370 --> 01:41:00,426
seeing with the field . Thinks about 

2337
01:41:00,426 --> 01:41:02,481
this . And this is what behind r I g 

2338
01:41:02,481 --> 01:41:04,703
independent review of this . We're able 

2339
01:41:04,703 --> 01:41:06,870
to talk to the very same people in the 

2340
01:41:06,870 --> 01:41:09,148
field that the pot has been talking to , 

2341
01:41:09,148 --> 01:41:12,190
uh , with a multi disciplinary team to 

2342
01:41:12,190 --> 01:41:14,900
get this type of feedback off . What 

2343
01:41:14,900 --> 01:41:16,844
exactly is going on ? And what are 

2344
01:41:16,844 --> 01:41:20,180
those root causes ? General etc . Madam 

2345
01:41:20,180 --> 01:41:22,347
Share . I did not . And I think that's 

2346
01:41:22,347 --> 01:41:24,458
an area where we can do better moving 

2347
01:41:24,458 --> 01:41:26,680
work on that . Do any of you think that 

2348
01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:28,910
someone should be court martial for 

2349
01:41:28,910 --> 01:41:31,910
being six minutes late to a formation 

2350
01:41:31,910 --> 01:41:33,980
meeting ? Tell me , 

2351
01:41:35,910 --> 01:41:39,760
general Achy , I'm sure . I mean , it 

2352
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:41,871
would depend on the circumstances . I 

2353
01:41:41,871 --> 01:41:44,204
mean , if it was in combat . Absolutely . 

2354
01:41:44,410 --> 01:41:46,466
I think if it was late for a meeting 

2355
01:41:46,466 --> 01:41:48,950
here in the Pentagon or and and this 

2356
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:51,182
this chamber , the answer would be no , 

2357
01:41:51,182 --> 01:41:53,404
ma'am . Right ? My time . has expired . 

2358
01:41:53,404 --> 01:41:56,820
Ranking member Kelly . I think we have 

2359
01:41:56,820 --> 01:41:58,709
to be real dying gris about using 

2360
01:41:58,709 --> 01:42:00,931
partial facts and partial figures . Six 

2361
01:42:00,931 --> 01:42:03,330
minutes lights , Not a big deal unless 

2362
01:42:03,340 --> 01:42:05,340
it is six minutes late . Delivering 

2363
01:42:05,340 --> 01:42:07,229
ordinance that saves thousands of 

2364
01:42:07,229 --> 01:42:09,284
troops six minutes late is not a big 

2365
01:42:09,284 --> 01:42:12,650
deal if it is to a meeting with Ah , 

2366
01:42:12,650 --> 01:42:14,483
subordinate . But it's extremely 

2367
01:42:14,483 --> 01:42:16,428
important if your meeting with the 

2368
01:42:16,428 --> 01:42:16,350
president , United States of the 

2369
01:42:16,350 --> 01:42:18,630
Secretary of Defense ah , six minutes 

2370
01:42:18,630 --> 01:42:21,020
late , if it is one time is not a big 

2371
01:42:21,020 --> 01:42:23,076
deal . Six minutes light . If it's a 

2372
01:42:23,076 --> 01:42:24,909
pattern . So not knowing all the 

2373
01:42:24,909 --> 01:42:26,798
circumstances , whether it was 16 

2374
01:42:26,798 --> 01:42:28,798
minute thing or the other , I think 

2375
01:42:28,798 --> 01:42:30,798
we're very dangerous . I think Carl 

2376
01:42:30,798 --> 01:42:32,742
Christiansen was very dangerous in 

2377
01:42:32,742 --> 01:42:34,964
saying that lawyers are less culturally 

2378
01:42:35,300 --> 01:42:39,030
byes , then commanders . That is a very 

2379
01:42:39,030 --> 01:42:41,700
dangerous assumption when he also said 

2380
01:42:41,710 --> 01:42:45,100
Onley one Antonini in Jags are African 

2381
01:42:45,100 --> 01:42:47,390
American . So where lesser represented 

2382
01:42:47,390 --> 01:42:49,390
in the Jag Corps but therefore were 

2383
01:42:49,390 --> 01:42:51,560
culturally superior to the rest of 

2384
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:53,560
these commanders . I think that's a 

2385
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:56,080
very dangerous assumption to make . I 

2386
01:42:56,080 --> 01:42:58,300
think we have to be real care . Here's 

2387
01:42:58,300 --> 01:43:02,100
what we know . We know e fives . People 

2388
01:43:02,100 --> 01:43:04,880
with five years and below are treated 

2389
01:43:05,260 --> 01:43:07,130
differently . If they're African 

2390
01:43:07,130 --> 01:43:09,186
American , when they're in the armed 

2391
01:43:09,186 --> 01:43:11,560
services , we know that . So we know 

2392
01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:15,030
what we got to get after we know that 

2393
01:43:15,220 --> 01:43:17,390
it seems the referral rates when 

2394
01:43:17,390 --> 01:43:19,740
they're tried to the conclusion or the 

2395
01:43:19,740 --> 01:43:22,140
same . So that doesn't necessarily mean 

2396
01:43:22,140 --> 01:43:24,251
that people are being referred . That 

2397
01:43:24,251 --> 01:43:26,307
shouldn't . It may actually mean the 

2398
01:43:26,307 --> 01:43:28,473
opposite , but we don't know . So what 

2399
01:43:28,473 --> 01:43:30,640
we've got to do is number one , figure 

2400
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:32,600
out . How do we quit being 

2401
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:34,044
discriminatory , racially 

2402
01:43:34,044 --> 01:43:36,330
discriminatory , to eat fives and below 

2403
01:43:36,330 --> 01:43:38,497
in people with five years of service ? 

2404
01:43:38,497 --> 01:43:40,552
What do we need to do to remedy that 

2405
01:43:40,552 --> 01:43:42,608
situation ? Number two is We know we 

2406
01:43:42,608 --> 01:43:44,608
don't have African American fighter 

2407
01:43:44,608 --> 01:43:46,710
pilots . We know that the promotion 

2408
01:43:46,710 --> 01:43:48,821
right sometimes are slower to general 

2409
01:43:48,821 --> 01:43:50,932
officer or don't make general officer 

2410
01:43:50,932 --> 01:43:53,099
with African Americans or minorities . 

2411
01:43:53,700 --> 01:43:55,922
We know some of the reasons , and so we 

2412
01:43:55,922 --> 01:43:57,978
got to get after him . Anthony Brown 

2413
01:43:57,978 --> 01:43:59,978
has the elite at which he's talking 

2414
01:43:59,978 --> 01:44:02,089
about because let me tell you what if 

2415
01:44:02,089 --> 01:44:01,630
you're not a fighter pilot , you're 

2416
01:44:01,630 --> 01:44:03,574
probably not gonna make General if 

2417
01:44:03,574 --> 01:44:05,574
you're not a submarine or a surface 

2418
01:44:05,574 --> 01:44:07,574
ship guy or an aviator , you're not 

2419
01:44:07,574 --> 01:44:09,741
gonna make admiral . You might . There 

2420
01:44:09,741 --> 01:44:11,741
may be some JAG corps , some signal 

2421
01:44:11,741 --> 01:44:13,852
some logistics officer do . If you're 

2422
01:44:13,852 --> 01:44:15,908
in the army , if you're not a tanker 

2423
01:44:15,908 --> 01:44:17,963
infantry or combat arms guy , you're 

2424
01:44:17,963 --> 01:44:19,797
probably not as likely to make . 

2425
01:44:19,797 --> 01:44:21,908
General , we know these . And so what 

2426
01:44:21,908 --> 01:44:23,963
are we doing to get African American 

2427
01:44:23,963 --> 01:44:26,130
kids into those branches where we know 

2428
01:44:26,130 --> 01:44:28,186
promotions happen ? Will you get the 

2429
01:44:28,186 --> 01:44:30,297
best schools because of the jobs that 

2430
01:44:30,297 --> 01:44:32,297
you do ? What do we do to encourage 

2431
01:44:32,297 --> 01:44:34,074
them ? What are we doing as the 

2432
01:44:34,074 --> 01:44:36,186
services to go after and make sure we 

2433
01:44:36,186 --> 01:44:38,350
got aviators who fly in the Navy who 

2434
01:44:38,350 --> 01:44:40,572
come off the decks of those cues ? What 

2435
01:44:40,572 --> 01:44:42,683
are we doing to make sure that we got 

2436
01:44:42,683 --> 01:44:44,850
African American pilots who wanna be F 

2437
01:44:44,850 --> 01:44:47,040
35 pilots , which is more likely a 

2438
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:48,984
quicker track to being promoted to 

2439
01:44:48,984 --> 01:44:51,096
general ? Anything else ? What are we 

2440
01:44:51,096 --> 01:44:52,873
doing to make sure that African 

2441
01:44:52,873 --> 01:44:55,040
American soldiers at the E one through 

2442
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,262
85 level are getting in the right ? Imo 

2443
01:44:57,262 --> 01:44:57,260
s is the right branches where 

2444
01:44:57,260 --> 01:45:00,160
promotions exist . That's what we got 

2445
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:02,410
today . And I don't mean to preach , 

2446
01:45:02,410 --> 01:45:04,521
but we got to get at the root of this 

2447
01:45:04,521 --> 01:45:06,521
stuff . We gotta quit talking about 

2448
01:45:06,521 --> 01:45:08,466
some of these things that maybe or 

2449
01:45:08,466 --> 01:45:10,521
might day what we got to do . If you 

2450
01:45:10,521 --> 01:45:12,743
want to stamp out the problem , you got 

2451
01:45:12,743 --> 01:45:14,966
to figure out what the problem is . You 

2452
01:45:14,966 --> 01:45:17,243
got to figure out what the root causes , 

2453
01:45:17,243 --> 01:45:19,243
and I think right now we're failing 

2454
01:45:19,243 --> 01:45:19,040
horribly at that . So with that being 

2455
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:21,040
said , I want to drive with Timmy . 

2456
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:23,151
What are you doing in your service to 

2457
01:45:23,151 --> 01:45:24,873
figure out what the cause is , 

2458
01:45:24,873 --> 01:45:26,984
therefore , that we can make a change 

2459
01:45:26,984 --> 01:45:29,900
in a difference ? Congressman Kelly , 

2460
01:45:29,900 --> 01:45:31,910
Thank you , I think from ah , 

2461
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:34,087
recruiting and promotion perspective , 

2462
01:45:34,087 --> 01:45:36,253
I think there's an intense focus right 

2463
01:45:36,253 --> 01:45:38,364
now . And there has been our chief of 

2464
01:45:38,364 --> 01:45:40,031
staff secretary instituted an 

2465
01:45:40,031 --> 01:45:41,920
information age talent management 

2466
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,031
system last year , and that , in part 

2467
01:45:44,031 --> 01:45:46,253
is designed to get after natural talent 

2468
01:45:46,253 --> 01:45:49,300
and talent that that implicit bias 

2469
01:45:49,310 --> 01:45:51,650
might prevent from advancing . And so I 

2470
01:45:51,650 --> 01:45:53,900
think there's a fair . There's not just 

2471
01:45:53,900 --> 01:45:55,789
a fair amount of emphasis there . 

2472
01:45:55,789 --> 01:45:57,820
Significant emphasis . I ous I 

2473
01:45:57,820 --> 01:45:59,690
mentioned in my statement I have 

2474
01:45:59,690 --> 01:46:02,960
directed with General Marine Ah look 

2475
01:46:02,970 --> 01:46:05,760
very deliberate assessment of trying to 

2476
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:08,510
get left of the allegation , and what 

2477
01:46:08,510 --> 01:46:10,250
that means is if we have 

2478
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:12,904
overrepresentation coming into the 

2479
01:46:12,904 --> 01:46:15,127
investigative system . How do we get in 

2480
01:46:15,127 --> 01:46:17,320
front of that allegation to figure out 

2481
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:19,487
what's happening when the soldier gets 

2482
01:46:19,487 --> 01:46:23,170
to the unit such that they they get in 

2483
01:46:23,170 --> 01:46:25,281
with , Let's say , the wrong crowd or 

2484
01:46:25,281 --> 01:46:27,337
they start using drugs or they start 

2485
01:46:27,337 --> 01:46:29,503
misbehaving . What is going on there ? 

2486
01:46:29,503 --> 01:46:31,640
Or perhaps what ? Just to the left of 

2487
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:34,030
the disposition decision to send 

2488
01:46:34,030 --> 01:46:36,450
someone to trial ? Is there something 

2489
01:46:36,450 --> 01:46:38,728
going on there ? So we're looking hard . 

2490
01:46:38,728 --> 01:46:40,940
It implicit bias . I take some some 

2491
01:46:40,940 --> 01:46:43,160
comfort in this . When we started 

2492
01:46:43,160 --> 01:46:45,271
looking at implicit bias in the arena 

2493
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:47,447
of sexual assault about 10 years ago , 

2494
01:46:47,780 --> 01:46:50,450
it is now replete through our training . 

2495
01:46:50,460 --> 01:46:53,290
Not only commanders but judge advocates 

2496
01:46:53,290 --> 01:46:55,710
throughout , and it , in my assessment 

2497
01:46:55,710 --> 01:46:57,599
professional assessment has had a 

2498
01:46:57,599 --> 01:47:00,180
significant impact on the understanding 

2499
01:47:00,180 --> 01:47:02,402
of counterintuitive behaviour in sexual 

2500
01:47:02,402 --> 01:47:05,180
assaults . We know training education 

2501
01:47:05,340 --> 01:47:08,120
in implicit bias works . Can you guys 

2502
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:10,120
really answer really quickly , just 

2503
01:47:10,120 --> 01:47:12,231
like 15 seconds on what you can do to 

2504
01:47:12,231 --> 01:47:14,453
change that ? Because I'm out of time . 

2505
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:18,630
Thank you Wreck . Remember Kelly First 

2506
01:47:18,630 --> 01:47:20,741
and foremost , I think we the jack or 

2507
01:47:20,741 --> 01:47:22,908
need to fit in with the Navy's over 11 

2508
01:47:22,908 --> 01:47:25,019
and a culture of excellence it really 

2509
01:47:25,019 --> 01:47:27,186
is about emphasizing signature waivers 

2510
01:47:27,186 --> 01:47:29,074
that giving your respect that you 

2511
01:47:29,074 --> 01:47:31,297
talked with . Second thing is , we have 

2512
01:47:31,297 --> 01:47:33,750
focused on diversity recruiting . We 

2513
01:47:33,750 --> 01:47:35,900
have a dedicated diversity liaison 

2514
01:47:35,900 --> 01:47:39,240
program 18 officers closely affiliated 

2515
01:47:39,240 --> 01:47:41,970
with 13 diversity and educational 

2516
01:47:41,980 --> 01:47:44,030
organizations to try to keep 

2517
01:47:44,030 --> 01:47:45,697
connections . So we keep that 

2518
01:47:45,697 --> 01:47:48,140
recruiting pipeline open and then , 

2519
01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:51,160
like General PD , talked about focusing 

2520
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:53,750
on unconscious bias . The reason that I 

2521
01:47:53,750 --> 01:47:55,806
think it works is because I remember 

2522
01:47:55,806 --> 01:47:58,040
the first time I took unconscious bias 

2523
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:01,460
training in 2014 . He was only later 

2524
01:48:02,070 --> 01:48:04,126
when I realized I had an unconscious 

2525
01:48:04,126 --> 01:48:06,403
bias against unconscious bias training . 

2526
01:48:06,670 --> 01:48:08,810
I think it can be effective , and I 

2527
01:48:08,810 --> 01:48:11,220
think we need to keep at it and keep 

2528
01:48:11,220 --> 01:48:13,520
moving that through the force . All 

2529
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:15,742
right , Very quickly , please . Ranking 

2530
01:48:15,742 --> 01:48:17,798
member Kelly . We do it exactly what 

2531
01:48:17,798 --> 01:48:20,130
you said it . You expand the discipline 

2532
01:48:20,130 --> 01:48:22,700
continuum from just courts an article 

2533
01:48:22,700 --> 01:48:25,630
15 and you go left when you expand that 

2534
01:48:25,630 --> 01:48:27,990
zone . And you look at that how you 

2535
01:48:28,770 --> 01:48:30,770
discipline somebody how you counsel 

2536
01:48:30,770 --> 01:48:32,881
somebody , how you include somebody . 

2537
01:48:32,881 --> 01:48:34,770
How you give them feedback is the 

2538
01:48:34,770 --> 01:48:36,890
holistic approach . We have to take 

2539
01:48:39,160 --> 01:48:41,470
ranking member coming very quickly . 

2540
01:48:41,480 --> 01:48:43,591
This is has to be top down driven and 

2541
01:48:43,591 --> 01:48:45,591
the comet on has done that with his 

2542
01:48:45,591 --> 01:48:47,924
recent action . Everybody has to get it , 

2543
01:48:47,924 --> 01:48:50,036
and it starts from the top , and he's 

2544
01:48:50,036 --> 01:48:52,258
driven that down . We also have done it 

2545
01:48:52,258 --> 01:48:54,313
with our pack order . Perpetrator of 

2546
01:48:54,313 --> 01:48:56,424
activities and conduct were that gets 

2547
01:48:56,424 --> 01:48:58,647
after discrimination that's been on the 

2548
01:48:58,647 --> 01:48:58,430
books for three years and involves 

2549
01:48:58,430 --> 01:49:00,263
equal opportunity adviser to the 

2550
01:49:00,263 --> 01:49:02,541
Commander . It's a commander's program . 

2551
01:49:03,770 --> 01:49:05,826
Thank you . Um , this Davis , you're 

2552
01:49:05,826 --> 01:49:09,590
recognized for five minutes . Thank 

2553
01:49:09,590 --> 01:49:11,850
you . Thank you , Madam . Chair and to 

2554
01:49:11,850 --> 01:49:14,072
all of you , we appreciate your joining 

2555
01:49:14,072 --> 01:49:17,900
us today . Some . You 

2556
01:49:17,900 --> 01:49:20,100
know , I'm glad that , like my 

2557
01:49:20,100 --> 01:49:23,470
colleague , Mr Kelly talked about , um , 

2558
01:49:23,730 --> 01:49:26,110
some of the issues that you've already 

2559
01:49:26,110 --> 01:49:29,190
identified and one of them it was about 

2560
01:49:29,190 --> 01:49:31,190
the five years , and I think that's 

2561
01:49:31,190 --> 01:49:33,357
very important . What I'd like to know 

2562
01:49:33,357 --> 01:49:36,050
is about the early warning signs . Is 

2563
01:49:36,050 --> 01:49:38,050
there ? Is there a nun Durst anding 

2564
01:49:38,050 --> 01:49:40,050
that that we really need to look at 

2565
01:49:40,050 --> 01:49:42,217
that and that some of that information 

2566
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:44,902
should be collected as well ? Are there 

2567
01:49:44,902 --> 01:49:46,736
counselling sessions ? Are there 

2568
01:49:46,736 --> 01:49:49,320
concerns about retribution ? How do we 

2569
01:49:49,330 --> 01:49:52,570
How do we begin to really understand 

2570
01:49:52,570 --> 01:49:54,990
that veteran ? How is that used ? The 

2571
01:49:54,990 --> 01:49:58,260
other thing that I think we're all 

2572
01:49:58,420 --> 01:50:00,950
sq say that we're all talking about 

2573
01:50:00,950 --> 01:50:03,570
right now , um , is the element of 

2574
01:50:03,570 --> 01:50:06,360
white privilege and I wonder to what 

2575
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:09,900
extent is that , um , in an 

2576
01:50:09,910 --> 01:50:13,650
area of discussion that really can be 

2577
01:50:13,660 --> 01:50:16,830
broadened in the military as well ? How 

2578
01:50:17,430 --> 01:50:20,140
How is that talked about ? Because , as 

2579
01:50:20,140 --> 01:50:22,307
we well know , if you look at the data 

2580
01:50:22,740 --> 01:50:26,310
there , there plenty of ways of seeing 

2581
01:50:26,310 --> 01:50:28,740
and suggesting and and really being 

2582
01:50:28,750 --> 01:50:31,780
open about half about , um , 

2583
01:50:32,670 --> 01:50:34,892
how that affects us all , frankly , and 

2584
01:50:34,892 --> 01:50:36,614
I think we all have in our own 

2585
01:50:36,614 --> 01:50:39,920
experience , um , those examples and 

2586
01:50:40,190 --> 01:50:42,412
how it might have been different if our 

2587
01:50:42,412 --> 01:50:44,490
son or daughter was black or brown . 

2588
01:50:44,500 --> 01:50:46,556
What ? What does that mean ? I think 

2589
01:50:46,556 --> 01:50:48,500
that's an important discussion toe 

2590
01:50:48,500 --> 01:50:50,667
having the services as well . And then 

2591
01:50:50,667 --> 01:50:54,350
finally , I just a No wonder you know 

2592
01:50:54,350 --> 01:50:57,920
how to how once we identify implicit 

2593
01:50:57,920 --> 01:51:00,660
bias , what do we do about it If we're 

2594
01:51:00,660 --> 01:51:03,220
to go back into some and looking at the 

2595
01:51:03,220 --> 01:51:06,710
progression of circumstances 

2596
01:51:06,710 --> 01:51:10,690
for for someone and the outcomes What ? 

2597
01:51:10,700 --> 01:51:12,770
What is it about that ? How do we 

2598
01:51:12,770 --> 01:51:15,103
identify it ? And then what would we do ? 

2599
01:51:15,103 --> 01:51:17,370
I mean , really , how how talk about 

2600
01:51:17,370 --> 01:51:19,592
that a little bit as well . Thank you . 

2601
01:51:23,060 --> 01:51:25,210
You want to start general etc . 

2602
01:51:26,850 --> 01:51:29,320
Madam Congressman , you know , again , 

2603
01:51:29,330 --> 01:51:31,630
I believe that starts from the top . 

2604
01:51:31,860 --> 01:51:33,804
And I believe it starts with these 

2605
01:51:33,804 --> 01:51:35,860
honest and candid conversations in a 

2606
01:51:35,860 --> 01:51:38,082
safe environment , you could do this in 

2607
01:51:38,082 --> 01:51:40,193
the military . Um , we believe in the 

2608
01:51:40,193 --> 01:51:42,193
Marine Corps that this is commander 

2609
01:51:42,193 --> 01:51:44,260
driven and commander owned . But you 

2610
01:51:44,260 --> 01:51:46,490
have to begin with those . You have to 

2611
01:51:46,490 --> 01:51:49,050
view diversity within the force as a 

2612
01:51:49,050 --> 01:51:51,590
strength . And that begins , you know , 

2613
01:51:51,590 --> 01:51:53,812
with the common not all way down to the 

2614
01:51:53,812 --> 01:51:55,868
most junior . But you have to accept 

2615
01:51:55,868 --> 01:51:57,979
that as a strength because at the end 

2616
01:51:57,979 --> 01:51:59,979
of the day , that's what the Marine 

2617
01:51:59,979 --> 01:52:02,201
Corps is about . It's about fighting as 

2618
01:52:02,201 --> 01:52:04,034
a team . Everybody on the team , 

2619
01:52:04,034 --> 01:52:06,034
regardless of gender , ethnicity or 

2620
01:52:06,034 --> 01:52:08,410
race , is very important . And that's 

2621
01:52:08,420 --> 01:52:10,530
that's the bottom line . So , as my 

2622
01:52:10,530 --> 01:52:12,808
colleagues have stated here , you know , 

2623
01:52:12,808 --> 01:52:15,141
pathways and mentorship to young people . 

2624
01:52:15,141 --> 01:52:17,308
So look at the military to look at the 

2625
01:52:17,308 --> 01:52:19,530
Marine Corps as a path for them . We 

2626
01:52:19,530 --> 01:52:21,641
have work to do there , but we can do 

2627
01:52:21,641 --> 01:52:23,863
that . Uh , these were things and seven 

2628
01:52:23,863 --> 01:52:25,570
separate Now . Thank you , 

2629
01:52:31,090 --> 01:52:34,260
man . I um when I when I look at the 

2630
01:52:34,270 --> 01:52:37,480
numbers we have right now and I see 

2631
01:52:37,480 --> 01:52:39,647
those numbers and it makes you realize 

2632
01:52:39,647 --> 01:52:41,647
that the numbers are good data , at 

2633
01:52:41,647 --> 01:52:44,170
least from an Article 15 and ah , court 

2634
01:52:44,170 --> 01:52:46,680
standpoint , it's not evidence . It's 

2635
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:48,880
not evidence to get to the root cause 

2636
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:51,380
of the problem . So the last part of 

2637
01:52:51,380 --> 01:52:53,713
your question , how do we train on bias ? 

2638
01:52:53,713 --> 01:52:55,769
You look at the way attorneys always 

2639
01:52:55,769 --> 01:52:58,000
look at things . You looked a weed out 

2640
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:00,620
bias to get to the weight , relevance 

2641
01:53:00,620 --> 01:53:03,920
and credibility of actual evidence . I 

2642
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:06,120
think one of the approaches we must 

2643
01:53:06,130 --> 01:53:09,030
take is to develop more data left of 

2644
01:53:09,030 --> 01:53:11,580
Article 15 . We don't have that data 

2645
01:53:11,590 --> 01:53:13,757
way . We kind of know that's where the 

2646
01:53:13,757 --> 01:53:16,070
problem is . What we don't know and 

2647
01:53:16,070 --> 01:53:20,000
what we can't answer for sure is are 

2648
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:23,950
we mentoring everybody the same ? We 

2649
01:53:23,950 --> 01:53:26,760
all feel that we probably aren't based 

2650
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:30,140
on those biases . Um , but we don't 

2651
01:53:30,140 --> 01:53:33,050
have the specific data to show that 

2652
01:53:33,050 --> 01:53:35,106
once you get that data , of course , 

2653
01:53:35,106 --> 01:53:37,272
you move on to the training , you move 

2654
01:53:37,272 --> 01:53:39,383
on to the speaking of bias , you move 

2655
01:53:39,383 --> 01:53:41,494
on to the training of that , you move 

2656
01:53:41,494 --> 01:53:43,717
onto weeding that out and that all that 

2657
01:53:43,717 --> 01:53:46,370
all creates an atmosphere of inclusion . 

2658
01:53:46,750 --> 01:53:49,083
You create that atmosphere of inclusion , 

2659
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:52,010
you've just created diversity . Okay , 

2660
01:53:52,020 --> 01:53:54,940
Thank you . Um , Admiral Hannah , Miss 

2661
01:53:54,940 --> 01:53:57,107
Davis says about 15 seconds , but will 

2662
01:53:57,107 --> 01:53:59,107
extend 15 seconds to each of you to 

2663
01:53:59,107 --> 01:54:01,960
finish your comments . The only 

2664
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:04,016
additional comment I would have is I 

2665
01:54:04,016 --> 01:54:06,016
think the value of unconscious bias 

2666
01:54:06,016 --> 01:54:08,080
training and other decision making 

2667
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,710
training is that you you put yourself 

2668
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:12,664
in the position where you can take 

2669
01:54:12,664 --> 01:54:14,720
different perspectives and you bring 

2670
01:54:14,720 --> 01:54:16,776
other people on your decision making 

2671
01:54:16,776 --> 01:54:16,480
team as well . And that's very 

2672
01:54:16,480 --> 01:54:18,710
protective for the final decision maker 

2673
01:54:18,710 --> 01:54:20,266
and everybody on the team . 

2674
01:54:22,530 --> 01:54:25,590
Yes , ma'am . Thank you . I think you 

2675
01:54:26,010 --> 01:54:28,990
should know as well that the Army not 

2676
01:54:28,990 --> 01:54:31,140
only is focused in the squad level in 

2677
01:54:31,140 --> 01:54:33,140
the squad level of according to our 

2678
01:54:33,140 --> 01:54:35,251
sergeant major and our chief of staff 

2679
01:54:35,251 --> 01:54:37,473
and secretary , it's all about the team 

2680
01:54:37,473 --> 01:54:39,807
building . And it's all about inclusion . 

2681
01:54:39,807 --> 01:54:42,029
And it's all about bringing people onto 

2682
01:54:42,029 --> 01:54:44,140
one team , so they all feel that they 

2683
01:54:44,140 --> 01:54:46,196
belong . And that gives you a better 

2684
01:54:46,196 --> 01:54:45,870
ability to diagnose where people are 

2685
01:54:45,870 --> 01:54:48,092
going left and right and center . And I 

2686
01:54:48,092 --> 01:54:50,540
think that focus by our Army leadership 

2687
01:54:50,780 --> 01:54:52,836
at every echelon all the way down is 

2688
01:54:52,836 --> 01:54:55,002
key to getting after this , especially 

2689
01:54:55,002 --> 01:54:58,320
when it comes to unconscious bias . All 

2690
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:02,180
right , thank you . Here is Helen . 

2691
01:55:02,190 --> 01:55:04,246
You're recognized for five minutes . 

2692
01:55:05,100 --> 01:55:07,740
Thank you , Chair . And thank you , 

2693
01:55:07,750 --> 01:55:09,861
Ranking member Kelly for holding this 

2694
01:55:09,861 --> 01:55:11,970
hearing and thank you Panelists for 

2695
01:55:11,970 --> 01:55:14,340
being here . This is a significant 

2696
01:55:14,340 --> 01:55:17,630
problem that we absolutely need to fix . 

2697
01:55:17,770 --> 01:55:20,120
We must ensure the systems we utilize 

2698
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:22,330
to administer discipline are fair and 

2699
01:55:22,330 --> 01:55:25,710
just for everyone . In the 19 sixties , 

2700
01:55:25,710 --> 01:55:27,970
my father served in the Marine Corps 

2701
01:55:27,980 --> 01:55:29,800
and experienced firsthand the 

2702
01:55:29,800 --> 01:55:32,250
maturation of the service into a fully 

2703
01:55:32,260 --> 01:55:34,550
integrated force , along with the 

2704
01:55:34,550 --> 01:55:37,240
racial tensions that flared up during 

2705
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:40,130
that time . We progress since then , 

2706
01:55:40,140 --> 01:55:42,196
but we can all agree we still have a 

2707
01:55:42,196 --> 01:55:44,860
long way to go . It was disheartening 

2708
01:55:44,860 --> 01:55:46,582
to learn that despite the data 

2709
01:55:46,582 --> 01:55:48,960
presented in the 2017 Protector 

2710
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:51,840
Defenders Report and the 2019 Jail 

2711
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:54,220
Report , the services have responded 

2712
01:55:54,220 --> 01:55:56,387
with little more than unconscious bias 

2713
01:55:56,387 --> 01:55:59,660
training to address widespread racial 

2714
01:55:59,660 --> 01:56:02,710
disparities . Meanwhile , Black Service 

2715
01:56:02,710 --> 01:56:05,270
members continue to receive nonjudicial 

2716
01:56:05,270 --> 01:56:07,381
punishment at disproportionately high 

2717
01:56:07,381 --> 01:56:09,720
rates , compared toa White Service 

2718
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:11,970
members , and I have to believe that 

2719
01:56:11,970 --> 01:56:14,840
this is also a contributing factor toe . 

2720
01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:16,840
Why we don't see service members of 

2721
01:56:16,840 --> 01:56:19,230
color achieve higher ranks , which is 

2722
01:56:19,230 --> 01:56:20,786
an issue this committee has 

2723
01:56:20,786 --> 01:56:23,060
consistently raised and which Weiqing 

2724
01:56:23,060 --> 01:56:25,590
member Kelly so eloquently articulated 

2725
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:27,940
just a few minutes ago . Generally , 

2726
01:56:27,940 --> 01:56:29,829
what Rockwell the Air Force spent 

2727
01:56:29,829 --> 01:56:32,051
nearly three years worth of resource is 

2728
01:56:32,051 --> 01:56:33,950
time and energy , refuting the 

2729
01:56:33,950 --> 01:56:36,270
protector defenders report and 

2730
01:56:36,270 --> 01:56:38,270
preventing the data from being made 

2731
01:56:38,270 --> 01:56:40,870
available to the public . That time and 

2732
01:56:40,870 --> 01:56:42,870
those resource is , could have been 

2733
01:56:42,870 --> 01:56:45,240
spent accepting that there is a major 

2734
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:48,260
problem in tackling it head on . It's 

2735
01:56:48,260 --> 01:56:50,500
clear the racial disparities thinner 

2736
01:56:50,500 --> 01:56:52,950
military justice system requires more 

2737
01:56:52,950 --> 01:56:55,400
than just a disparity . Board that met 

2738
01:56:55,400 --> 01:56:58,310
for 90 days to result . Try to resolve 

2739
01:56:58,310 --> 01:57:01,100
it . So my quest . One of my questions . 

2740
01:57:01,100 --> 01:57:03,350
I have a few Will this include 

2741
01:57:03,360 --> 01:57:06,710
improving the well all of the work that 

2742
01:57:06,710 --> 01:57:08,990
you mentioned earlier about addressing 

2743
01:57:08,990 --> 01:57:11,370
these long term issues ? Will this 

2744
01:57:11,370 --> 01:57:13,370
include improving the collection of 

2745
01:57:13,370 --> 01:57:15,800
data on race and ethnicity to make it 

2746
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,550
more uniform across the services ? So 

2747
01:57:18,550 --> 01:57:21,600
it's easier to identify problems ? 

2748
01:57:24,180 --> 01:57:26,610
Yes , ma'am , it will . We are making a 

2749
01:57:26,700 --> 01:57:30,530
conscious effort to again move that 

2750
01:57:30,530 --> 01:57:32,850
left of that Article 15 and court 

2751
01:57:32,850 --> 01:57:35,510
martial on the continuum and collect 

2752
01:57:35,510 --> 01:57:37,600
that a collect meaningful data of 

2753
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:39,767
inclusion and feedback and mentoring . 

2754
01:57:39,890 --> 01:57:43,100
I think that's critical to getting to 

2755
01:57:43,100 --> 01:57:45,670
the root cost off the issue . Here . 

2756
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:51,700
Thank you . And what is the timeline 

2757
01:57:51,700 --> 01:57:54,970
for actions to be taken ? If you could 

2758
01:57:54,970 --> 01:57:58,190
just reiterate that , General Rockwell . 

2759
01:58:00,290 --> 01:58:03,100
We're doing it now , ma'am . And Ah , 

2760
01:58:03,480 --> 01:58:06,360
And right now , the projected timeline 

2761
01:58:06,370 --> 01:58:08,560
with the group that has been put 

2762
01:58:08,560 --> 01:58:11,240
together with our manpower and reserve 

2763
01:58:11,240 --> 01:58:13,920
affairs and personnel that were were a 

2764
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:17,850
part off is ah , calendar year 20 . 

2765
01:58:19,510 --> 01:58:22,200
Okay . Thank you so much . And last 

2766
01:58:22,200 --> 01:58:24,660
question . Well , maybe the last 

2767
01:58:24,660 --> 01:58:26,716
question , General , depending on my 

2768
01:58:26,716 --> 01:58:28,493
time , how will the progress be 

2769
01:58:28,493 --> 01:58:29,493
measured ? 

2770
01:58:32,790 --> 01:58:35,340
I think ultimately you measure progress 

2771
01:58:35,340 --> 01:58:38,820
by eliminating that racial disparity . 

2772
01:58:39,170 --> 01:58:41,226
You get to where we are right now in 

2773
01:58:41,226 --> 01:58:43,226
the Air Force at the E five level . 

2774
01:58:43,226 --> 01:58:45,281
With five years in where there is no 

2775
01:58:45,281 --> 01:58:47,448
disparity , I think that has to be the 

2776
01:58:47,448 --> 01:58:49,670
ultimate goal of where we should get to 

2777
01:58:51,820 --> 01:58:54,042
thank you so much . And I have I have a 

2778
01:58:54,042 --> 01:58:56,280
little bit of time . So I will ask this 

2779
01:58:56,280 --> 01:58:58,113
next question . I understand the 

2780
01:58:58,113 --> 01:59:00,113
inspector general will be leading a 

2781
01:59:00,113 --> 01:59:02,350
review on racial disparities and causal 

2782
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:04,760
factors . like culture and policies . 

2783
01:59:04,770 --> 01:59:06,890
The scope and demographic makeup of 

2784
01:59:06,890 --> 01:59:09,057
this review panel can certainly make a 

2785
01:59:09,057 --> 01:59:11,460
difference in its effectiveness and 

2786
01:59:11,460 --> 01:59:13,516
what its recommendations look like . 

2787
01:59:13,810 --> 01:59:16,350
Can you describe the makeup of the 

2788
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:16,990
panel ? 

2789
01:59:20,290 --> 01:59:22,512
I don't have the full details . We have 

2790
01:59:22,512 --> 01:59:25,370
three members on that panel , but it is 

2791
01:59:25,380 --> 01:59:28,100
It is fundamentally large panel it has . 

2792
01:59:28,110 --> 01:59:31,410
It has general officers on it who are 

2793
01:59:31,410 --> 01:59:33,840
black and African American . It has 

2794
01:59:33,850 --> 01:59:36,200
chiefs on it , senior enlisted , who 

2795
01:59:36,200 --> 01:59:39,670
are African American . And it is It is 

2796
01:59:39,860 --> 01:59:42,360
multi disciplinary and multi diverse . 

2797
01:59:43,210 --> 01:59:46,860
The again , the idea is to get left off 

2798
01:59:46,970 --> 01:59:49,960
Article 15 . And to get to that , there 

2799
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:52,182
are so many different factors that need 

2800
01:59:52,182 --> 01:59:54,238
to be looked at . And I think what's 

2801
01:59:54,238 --> 01:59:56,780
going to be key is reaching down into 

2802
01:59:58,210 --> 02:00:00,420
what people feel on the ground . Uh , 

2803
02:00:00,420 --> 02:00:02,440
and that's really the focus of what 

2804
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,740
they're trying to get to . Thank you so 

2805
02:00:05,740 --> 02:00:08,580
much , Madam Chair , I yield . Thank 

2806
02:00:08,580 --> 02:00:10,830
you , Miss Holland . Mr . Cisneros , 

2807
02:00:10,830 --> 02:00:12,886
you're recognized for five minutes . 

2808
02:00:14,670 --> 02:00:16,892
Thank you , Madam Chair and I thank you 

2809
02:00:16,892 --> 02:00:19,420
all for being here today . You know we 

2810
02:00:19,420 --> 02:00:22,210
have a problem in this country . What ? 

2811
02:00:22,210 --> 02:00:25,640
Sentencing in the civilian . Well in 

2812
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:28,100
the civilian law enforcement . There 

2813
02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:31,230
are criminal justice system of people 

2814
02:00:31,230 --> 02:00:33,160
of color . Tend to get a longer 

2815
02:00:33,160 --> 02:00:36,160
sentences that are there . Then what 

2816
02:00:36,170 --> 02:00:39,670
individuals do ? Is this something 

2817
02:00:39,670 --> 02:00:41,670
we're looking at in the military as 

2818
02:00:41,670 --> 02:00:43,830
well ? We know we have a problem with 

2819
02:00:43,830 --> 02:00:46,850
the fives and below going to court 

2820
02:00:46,850 --> 02:00:49,290
martial or receiving and JP more often 

2821
02:00:49,290 --> 02:00:52,250
than White Service members do . But are 

2822
02:00:52,250 --> 02:00:54,583
we looking at the sentencing and really , 

2823
02:00:54,583 --> 02:00:56,750
are these individuals of colored being 

2824
02:00:56,750 --> 02:00:59,340
sentenced more harshly than their white 

2825
02:00:59,580 --> 02:01:00,580
counterparts ? 

2826
02:01:04,300 --> 02:01:08,020
Sir , I'll go first . Um , as we looked 

2827
02:01:08,020 --> 02:01:11,020
at this issue with regard to the G A O 

2828
02:01:11,020 --> 02:01:14,620
report . Ah , as a matter of fact , 

2829
02:01:16,010 --> 02:01:19,840
Black Airman are sentenced , um , 

2830
02:01:21,680 --> 02:01:24,460
less severely than white . I think that 

2831
02:01:24,460 --> 02:01:26,571
indicate and that's both with article 

2832
02:01:26,571 --> 02:01:28,710
15 punishments and court martial 

2833
02:01:28,710 --> 02:01:32,660
sentences . Um , I think all that 

2834
02:01:32,660 --> 02:01:35,180
tells us is this this issue is much 

2835
02:01:35,180 --> 02:01:38,650
more complex than we can really wrap . 

2836
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:42,700
That was Yeah , correct me if 

2837
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:44,942
I'm wrong , but that was form or senior 

2838
02:01:44,942 --> 02:01:47,440
members of the E five are above 85 

2839
02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:49,551
right ? I'm talking about more junior 

2840
02:01:49,551 --> 02:01:51,850
ranks . No , sorry . Even the one Teoh 

2841
02:01:51,850 --> 02:01:54,260
IV e five ranks where you see the 

2842
02:01:54,260 --> 02:01:56,482
racial disparity when you break it down 

2843
02:01:56,482 --> 02:01:58,980
further in the air force of White 

2844
02:01:58,980 --> 02:02:00,980
Airman are actually punished and 

2845
02:02:00,980 --> 02:02:02,924
sentenced more severely than Black 

2846
02:02:02,924 --> 02:02:05,930
Airman with a gentleman Yield . Yes , 

2847
02:02:05,930 --> 02:02:09,510
ma'am . Um , in the G a o report , it 

2848
02:02:09,510 --> 02:02:11,343
said that black and male service 

2849
02:02:11,343 --> 02:02:13,566
members were more likely than white and 

2850
02:02:13,566 --> 02:02:15,732
female service members to be tried and 

2851
02:02:15,732 --> 02:02:17,566
summary courts martial and to be 

2852
02:02:17,566 --> 02:02:19,621
subject of nonjudicial punishment in 

2853
02:02:19,621 --> 02:02:21,910
the Air Force in the Marine Corps . How 

2854
02:02:21,910 --> 02:02:24,021
does that square with what you said , 

2855
02:02:24,021 --> 02:02:26,188
General ? Yes , ma'am , that that's ah 

2856
02:02:26,188 --> 02:02:29,020
in venue selection Mawr . Go to that 

2857
02:02:29,020 --> 02:02:31,490
venue , that court martial . But at the 

2858
02:02:31,500 --> 02:02:33,722
end of it , when they are actually , if 

2859
02:02:33,722 --> 02:02:35,870
they are convicted and punished their 

2860
02:02:35,870 --> 02:02:39,100
sentences or less in the Air Force and 

2861
02:02:39,600 --> 02:02:41,711
and again I am I don't know what that 

2862
02:02:41,711 --> 02:02:43,950
means . Uh , it's It's just as you as 

2863
02:02:43,950 --> 02:02:46,228
you pull apart the data and analyze it . 

2864
02:02:46,450 --> 02:02:48,672
That's what we see in the Air Force . I 

2865
02:02:48,672 --> 02:02:50,728
don't know if that's the case in the 

2866
02:02:50,728 --> 02:02:53,820
other services . You know , if I could 

2867
02:02:53,830 --> 02:02:55,830
for the other services , if I could 

2868
02:02:55,830 --> 02:02:58,800
take those answers . For the record , I 

2869
02:02:58,810 --> 02:03:00,850
have another question regarding the 

2870
02:03:00,850 --> 02:03:03,280
collection of data in regards to in JP . 

2871
02:03:03,770 --> 02:03:07,080
Um for and Commanding Officers 

2872
02:03:07,440 --> 02:03:09,650
Assn . We're doing the NGP as your 

2873
02:03:09,650 --> 02:03:13,050
collecting this data , um are we be 

2874
02:03:13,050 --> 02:03:15,110
collecting individual data for these 

2875
02:03:15,110 --> 02:03:17,054
commanding officers and looking at 

2876
02:03:17,054 --> 02:03:20,530
their records and trying to find these 

2877
02:03:20,530 --> 02:03:22,474
racial disparities and how they're 

2878
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:27,680
dishing out punishment ? And if so , if 

2879
02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:29,624
we're seeing starting to see these 

2880
02:03:29,624 --> 02:03:31,680
racial disparities in the punishment 

2881
02:03:31,680 --> 02:03:33,791
that they're issuing , are they being 

2882
02:03:33,791 --> 02:03:36,190
council ? That all ? And anybody could 

2883
02:03:36,190 --> 02:03:38,246
take that question like they're from 

2884
02:03:38,246 --> 02:03:41,810
everybody I could . Congressman , this 

2885
02:03:41,810 --> 02:03:44,550
is General PD from the Army . I think 

2886
02:03:44,550 --> 02:03:47,020
the short answer is if we if we looked 

2887
02:03:47,020 --> 02:03:49,076
at our data collection today , we do 

2888
02:03:49,076 --> 02:03:51,187
not track that they're anything right 

2889
02:03:51,187 --> 02:03:54,840
now . My mike is activated . 

2890
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:58,100
Can you hear me ? Ok , OK , sir , this 

2891
02:03:58,100 --> 02:04:00,680
general PD from the army sitting here 

2892
02:04:00,680 --> 02:04:04,010
today , we do not track Ah , particular 

2893
02:04:04,010 --> 02:04:06,970
commanders dispositions by commander by 

2894
02:04:06,970 --> 02:04:10,580
race . And so I think in terms of our 

2895
02:04:10,590 --> 02:04:13,640
reflections on how we get after the 

2896
02:04:13,650 --> 02:04:15,594
notion of potential bias , whether 

2897
02:04:15,594 --> 02:04:17,690
unconscious or deliberate , that is 

2898
02:04:17,700 --> 02:04:19,811
part of I think , our assessment when 

2899
02:04:19,811 --> 02:04:22,033
General Verena and I talk about how law 

2900
02:04:22,033 --> 02:04:24,256
enforcement officer reacts to the scene 

2901
02:04:24,256 --> 02:04:26,367
of domestic violence or our commander 

2902
02:04:26,367 --> 02:04:28,422
disposes of nonjudicial punishment I 

2903
02:04:28,422 --> 02:04:30,589
think this is one of the areas that we 

2904
02:04:30,589 --> 02:04:32,756
look at . I would tell you , though in 

2905
02:04:32,756 --> 02:04:34,978
practice as a practicing judge advocate 

2906
02:04:34,978 --> 02:04:36,867
in the field for 32 years , those 

2907
02:04:36,867 --> 02:04:39,410
indicators are evident to any judge , 

2908
02:04:39,410 --> 02:04:41,521
advocate or other leader at Echelon . 

2909
02:04:41,521 --> 02:04:43,521
Whether it's a brigade commander of 

2910
02:04:43,521 --> 02:04:45,743
division commander , they see things in 

2911
02:04:45,743 --> 02:04:47,966
their formation , especially particular 

2912
02:04:47,966 --> 02:04:50,021
commanders who are doing things that 

2913
02:04:50,021 --> 02:04:52,380
appear to them . Odd or suspicious or 

2914
02:04:52,380 --> 02:04:54,820
curious , I , myself and only one 

2915
02:04:54,820 --> 02:04:56,653
occasion in 32 years remembers a 

2916
02:04:56,653 --> 02:04:59,200
commander in such a circumstance as you , 

2917
02:04:59,210 --> 02:05:01,710
as you suggest it's worth looking at . 

2918
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:04,280
I think we have to . Andi , I think 

2919
02:05:04,280 --> 02:05:06,280
it's responsible thing to do in our 

2920
02:05:06,280 --> 02:05:09,360
assessment . Thank you , sir . You know , 

2921
02:05:09,370 --> 02:05:11,670
with that madam Chairwoman , I yield 

2922
02:05:11,670 --> 02:05:13,670
back my time . But I would like tea 

2923
02:05:13,670 --> 02:05:15,837
here . Response on the record from the 

2924
02:05:15,837 --> 02:05:18,860
the other judge did judge after general . 

2925
02:05:18,860 --> 02:05:21,027
Thank you . All right , we'll ask that 

2926
02:05:21,027 --> 02:05:23,360
you prepare , um , response for the 

2927
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:26,490
record . Thank you , Mr Cisneros . Now , 

2928
02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:29,420
excuse me things , Trey . Hand is 

2929
02:05:29,420 --> 02:05:31,087
recognized for five minutes . 

2930
02:05:33,890 --> 02:05:36,090
Uh , thank you . Thank you , Madam . 

2931
02:05:36,090 --> 02:05:38,090
Chair . And in case it wasn't clear 

2932
02:05:38,090 --> 02:05:40,640
before , um , I do want to say for the 

2933
02:05:40,640 --> 02:05:42,473
record that I'm grateful for the 

2934
02:05:42,473 --> 02:05:44,890
leadership of ah , Chairwoman Sphere 

2935
02:05:44,900 --> 02:05:47,360
and , um , and the mill purse 

2936
02:05:47,370 --> 02:05:50,490
subcommittee . Because back in 2012 

2937
02:05:50,490 --> 02:05:53,580
when addressing sexual assault and and 

2938
02:05:53,580 --> 02:05:57,290
harassment , uh , reporting , I think 

2939
02:05:57,290 --> 02:06:01,290
it led to substantive changes in Indio 

2940
02:06:01,290 --> 02:06:03,480
DIY culture . But when it comes to a 

2941
02:06:03,480 --> 02:06:05,790
quality injustice , I mean , we are We 

2942
02:06:05,790 --> 02:06:08,110
are an impatient nations . So I'm going 

2943
02:06:08,110 --> 02:06:10,730
to ask the same question that I asked 

2944
02:06:10,740 --> 02:06:14,500
before in terms of convening authority . 

2945
02:06:14,500 --> 02:06:16,970
And if you believe convening authority 

2946
02:06:16,970 --> 02:06:19,450
should be left to commanders or do you 

2947
02:06:19,450 --> 02:06:21,172
think that the current process 

2948
02:06:21,172 --> 02:06:23,950
increases the risk of unconscious or 

2949
02:06:23,950 --> 02:06:26,210
even overt bias within our military 

2950
02:06:26,210 --> 02:06:29,650
justice system ? Mystery . And can you , 

2951
02:06:29,660 --> 02:06:33,280
um , return to the video portion ? We 

2952
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:37,190
don't see you . Oh , I'm sorry . I'm 

2953
02:06:37,190 --> 02:06:39,990
sorry . You me ? Now way . See you that . 

2954
02:06:41,480 --> 02:06:45,280
Thank you , man . This is General 

2955
02:06:45,280 --> 02:06:48,270
PD from the Army . You've probably 

2956
02:06:48,270 --> 02:06:50,381
heard me say this before , but I have 

2957
02:06:50,381 --> 02:06:52,492
complete confidence in our commanders 

2958
02:06:52,492 --> 02:06:56,330
to administer justice fairly and and 

2959
02:06:56,340 --> 02:06:58,450
dispassionately , especially at the 

2960
02:06:58,450 --> 02:07:01,280
senior levels . I It's not that I don't 

2961
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:03,700
have faith in lawyers . I love my core . 

2962
02:07:03,700 --> 02:07:06,033
I love the judge advocates . We recruit , 

2963
02:07:06,033 --> 02:07:07,922
train and educate and nurture and 

2964
02:07:07,922 --> 02:07:11,140
culture . But there's no monopoly on 

2965
02:07:11,150 --> 02:07:13,800
VIAS or unbiased . There's no monopoly 

2966
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:16,350
on wisdom in the in your legal branches . 

2967
02:07:16,720 --> 02:07:18,770
I look to the federal in the state 

2968
02:07:18,770 --> 02:07:20,826
sector , and I'm not trying to throw 

2969
02:07:20,826 --> 02:07:22,881
anybody under the bus . But that's a 

2970
02:07:22,881 --> 02:07:24,992
lawyer controlled system . And and by 

2971
02:07:24,992 --> 02:07:26,714
any measure , whether it's the 

2972
02:07:26,714 --> 02:07:28,730
Sentencing project or DOJ Bureau of 

2973
02:07:28,730 --> 02:07:31,400
Statistics , the racial disparities in 

2974
02:07:31,400 --> 02:07:33,430
those systems are well in excess of 

2975
02:07:33,430 --> 02:07:35,708
what you find in the military services . 

2976
02:07:35,708 --> 02:07:38,150
I don't that's not by way of excuse , 

2977
02:07:38,150 --> 02:07:40,372
but that's a lawyer controlled system . 

2978
02:07:40,372 --> 02:07:42,206
So I don't believe the answer is 

2979
02:07:42,206 --> 02:07:44,428
lawyers . I believe the answer is a set 

2980
02:07:44,428 --> 02:07:46,720
of cross checks and balances between 

2981
02:07:46,720 --> 02:07:49,460
law enforcement commanders and lawyers 

2982
02:07:49,580 --> 02:07:51,802
looking at each other in the system and 

2983
02:07:51,802 --> 02:07:54,160
keeping each other honest . Thank you . 

2984
02:07:55,780 --> 02:07:57,750
Yeah , well , anyone else want to 

2985
02:07:57,750 --> 02:07:59,917
comment on that ? Writing would have a 

2986
02:07:59,917 --> 02:08:00,917
different view . 

2987
02:08:04,840 --> 02:08:07,118
Okay , But I'm gonna go to my question , 

2988
02:08:07,118 --> 02:08:09,680
given that you're I'm I'm sure , um , 

2989
02:08:10,070 --> 02:08:12,710
you're all looking inward with a lot of 

2990
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:16,270
urgency . One of the G A o findings 

2991
02:08:17,140 --> 02:08:19,170
was that while black and aesthetic 

2992
02:08:19,170 --> 02:08:22,260
males were more likely than whites , 

2993
02:08:22,260 --> 02:08:24,850
servicemen and women to be tried in 

2994
02:08:25,290 --> 02:08:27,760
general and special courts martial 

2995
02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:30,230
across the services race was not a 

2996
02:08:30,230 --> 02:08:32,510
statistically significant factor in the 

2997
02:08:32,510 --> 02:08:35,170
likelihood of conviction . And so I'm 

2998
02:08:35,170 --> 02:08:37,400
wondering , What do you believe that 

2999
02:08:37,410 --> 02:08:39,466
data says about the military justice 

3000
02:08:39,466 --> 02:08:41,466
system ? Could it indicate that the 

3001
02:08:41,466 --> 02:08:43,780
bias is more probable in amongst our 

3002
02:08:43,780 --> 02:08:45,780
junior leadership ratings , who are 

3003
02:08:45,780 --> 02:08:48,058
recommending service members for N . J . 

3004
02:08:48,058 --> 02:08:50,370
P . Or courts martial , that amongst 

3005
02:08:50,370 --> 02:08:52,481
the senior leaders who are ultimately 

3006
02:08:52,481 --> 02:08:53,481
sentencing them ? 

3007
02:08:56,370 --> 02:08:58,590
Congresswoman , I think this goes back 

3008
02:08:58,600 --> 02:09:01,410
to the first question , and you can 

3009
02:09:01,410 --> 02:09:03,410
really dovetail the answer into the 

3010
02:09:03,410 --> 02:09:05,521
first question of what you just asked 

3011
02:09:05,521 --> 02:09:08,040
if we when you when you look at what a 

3012
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,970
commander does of setting the tone and 

3013
02:09:10,970 --> 02:09:13,192
then the commander setting that command 

3014
02:09:13,192 --> 02:09:16,220
climate , you and you look at this 

3015
02:09:16,220 --> 02:09:18,680
issue and you end you and we think we 

3016
02:09:18,680 --> 02:09:20,736
know where the answer is , where the 

3017
02:09:20,736 --> 02:09:22,680
targets are , where the targets of 

3018
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:25,800
opportunity are that is left of 15 . 

3019
02:09:26,610 --> 02:09:29,040
We know then that where this has to 

3020
02:09:29,040 --> 02:09:31,040
happen , where the unconscious bias 

3021
02:09:31,040 --> 02:09:32,984
needs to be eliminated , where the 

3022
02:09:32,984 --> 02:09:35,151
mentoring and the inclusion happens is 

3023
02:09:35,151 --> 02:09:37,920
at first line E five supervisor over 

3024
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:41,730
those if the foreign below chairman 

3025
02:09:42,230 --> 02:09:44,119
and when you look at setting that 

3026
02:09:44,119 --> 02:09:46,341
command climate , knowing commander has 

3027
02:09:46,341 --> 02:09:48,174
to do that and then letting that 

3028
02:09:48,174 --> 02:09:50,230
supervisor do that . That's where we 

3029
02:09:50,230 --> 02:09:52,452
need to focus the help , the training , 

3030
02:09:52,452 --> 02:09:54,397
the data and everything we need to 

3031
02:09:54,397 --> 02:09:54,280
collect . 

3032
02:09:58,320 --> 02:10:00,431
Did anybody else want to add anything 

3033
02:10:00,431 --> 02:10:02,487
to general work ? Ruggles comments . 

3034
02:10:07,730 --> 02:10:11,160
I think , Madam Congresswoman , I think 

3035
02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:13,160
from the Marine Corps perspective , 

3036
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:15,216
there's two pieces thingy . A report 

3037
02:10:15,216 --> 02:10:17,271
was pretty clear that all those they 

3038
02:10:17,271 --> 02:10:19,580
showed bias in the data they cannot 

3039
02:10:19,580 --> 02:10:21,830
conclude unlawful bias because we don't 

3040
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:24,302
fully understand that data . So I think 

3041
02:10:24,360 --> 02:10:26,527
Number one , you know , to general PDS 

3042
02:10:26,527 --> 02:10:28,693
point , we have to kind of get left of 

3043
02:10:28,693 --> 02:10:30,749
the problem and figure out what this 

3044
02:10:30,749 --> 02:10:32,749
data exactly means . But second and 

3045
02:10:32,749 --> 02:10:34,804
more importantly , in something that 

3046
02:10:34,804 --> 02:10:36,860
the common on has made clear is that 

3047
02:10:36,860 --> 02:10:38,971
commanders have to get after this and 

3048
02:10:38,971 --> 02:10:40,749
setting the tone , training and 

3049
02:10:40,749 --> 02:10:42,749
educating their supported personnel 

3050
02:10:42,749 --> 02:10:44,527
about the importance of this of 

3051
02:10:44,527 --> 02:10:46,749
equality and diversity in the force and 

3052
02:10:46,749 --> 02:10:48,693
how that makes us stronger . And I 

3053
02:10:48,693 --> 02:10:50,860
think that's something that the common 

3054
02:10:50,860 --> 02:10:53,027
on himself has really gotten after and 

3055
02:10:53,027 --> 02:10:52,880
that we're taking very seriously in the 

3056
02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:56,340
Marine Corps . Well , I appreciate all 

3057
02:10:56,340 --> 02:10:58,562
that . I mean , certainly what you want 

3058
02:10:58,562 --> 02:11:00,673
to back up the data with , you know , 

3059
02:11:00,673 --> 02:11:02,896
every cause analysis along all of those 

3060
02:11:02,896 --> 02:11:05,110
sort of stage gates . And I understand 

3061
02:11:05,110 --> 02:11:06,999
that the Air Force is going to be 

3062
02:11:06,999 --> 02:11:08,888
completing and on in the survey's 

3063
02:11:08,888 --> 02:11:10,888
General walk Brockwell . Will those 

3064
02:11:10,888 --> 02:11:12,999
findings of the surveys Will those be 

3065
02:11:12,999 --> 02:11:16,590
public ? Yes , Congresswoman . I 

3066
02:11:16,590 --> 02:11:19,230
imagine they will be how I'll defer all 

3067
02:11:19,230 --> 02:11:21,760
that to the I G . Who is is running it . 

3068
02:11:21,770 --> 02:11:23,890
So we do get an independent . Look at 

3069
02:11:23,890 --> 02:11:26,720
this . I can't believe those weren't . 

3070
02:11:26,730 --> 02:11:28,940
Those results will not be open and 

3071
02:11:28,940 --> 02:11:30,710
transparent . All right . Miss 

3072
02:11:30,710 --> 02:11:32,960
Trayvon's time is expired . Thank you . 

3073
02:11:33,270 --> 02:11:35,310
Will now go to Mr Brown for five 

3074
02:11:35,310 --> 02:11:38,840
minutes . Thank you , Madam Chair again . 

3075
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:40,784
I want to thank you in the ranking 

3076
02:11:40,784 --> 02:11:42,784
member , a representative jelly for 

3077
02:11:42,784 --> 02:11:45,390
allowing wave on this afternoon . I 

3078
02:11:45,400 --> 02:11:48,880
want to thank each of our Panelists 

3079
02:11:48,880 --> 02:11:51,690
were testifying today One . Thank you 

3080
02:11:51,690 --> 02:11:53,801
for your service to our nation and in 

3081
02:11:53,801 --> 02:11:56,370
our armed forces . And for your stated 

3082
02:11:56,370 --> 02:11:59,750
commitment to end racial disparities in 

3083
02:11:59,750 --> 02:12:02,790
our military justice system . We are at 

3084
02:12:02,790 --> 02:12:05,260
a difficult time in our nation's 

3085
02:12:05,260 --> 02:12:08,390
history . A time when racial injustices 

3086
02:12:08,390 --> 02:12:10,930
scene in the violence against black 

3087
02:12:10,930 --> 02:12:14,030
Americans by local law enforcement . A 

3088
02:12:14,030 --> 02:12:16,810
time when persistent racial disparities 

3089
02:12:16,810 --> 02:12:19,810
in health are illuminated by the stark 

3090
02:12:19,810 --> 02:12:22,280
contrast we're witnessing in the just 

3091
02:12:22,280 --> 02:12:24,610
proportionate prevalence of Kobe 19 

3092
02:12:24,610 --> 02:12:26,610
death and infection among black and 

3093
02:12:26,610 --> 02:12:29,070
brown Americans a time when almost 

3094
02:12:29,080 --> 02:12:31,640
every racial disparity experience in 

3095
02:12:31,640 --> 02:12:34,450
this nation in our educational systems 

3096
02:12:34,450 --> 02:12:36,560
are criminal systems . Our workforce 

3097
02:12:36,760 --> 02:12:38,780
are compounded by this pernicious 

3098
02:12:38,780 --> 02:12:41,150
pandemic , and today we're at a 

3099
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:43,327
difficult time in America's military . 

3100
02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:47,070
An institution that led this nation in 

3101
02:12:47,070 --> 02:12:49,600
racial integration almost 75 years ago 

3102
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:52,220
is now confronted with bone white 

3103
02:12:52,220 --> 02:12:54,800
nationalism in our ranks , an 

3104
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:58,040
institution that saw the first African 

3105
02:12:58,040 --> 02:13:01,650
American first captain , West 0.40 

3106
02:13:01,650 --> 02:13:03,940
years ago , now retired Army General 

3107
02:13:03,940 --> 02:13:07,190
Vince Brooks . It only yet it took 

3108
02:13:07,190 --> 02:13:10,510
until last week before we could confirm 

3109
02:13:10,510 --> 02:13:12,566
our first African American service , 

3110
02:13:12,566 --> 02:13:14,850
Chief General Brown of the Air Force . 

3111
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:18,790
And we still have a military who's 61 4 

3112
02:13:18,790 --> 02:13:21,420
star flag officers Onley include two 

3113
02:13:21,430 --> 02:13:23,541
Afghan American officers , among them 

3114
02:13:24,100 --> 02:13:27,060
an institution that benefited from the 

3115
02:13:27,060 --> 02:13:30,710
courageous service of nearly 1000 

3116
02:13:30,710 --> 02:13:33,050
pilots during World War Two who 

3117
02:13:33,050 --> 02:13:35,530
completed the Tuskegee training program . 

3118
02:13:35,630 --> 02:13:38,350
Yet today there are only 446 minority 

3119
02:13:38,360 --> 02:13:40,582
fighter or bomber pilots and navigators 

3120
02:13:40,582 --> 02:13:43,050
and young forces less than 2% of our 

3121
02:13:43,050 --> 02:13:45,530
pilots are African American , an 

3122
02:13:45,530 --> 02:13:48,010
institution that after World War Two in 

3123
02:13:48,010 --> 02:13:52,010
1950 51 began to operate 

3124
02:13:52,020 --> 02:13:55,120
under the UCMJ a , which in many ways 

3125
02:13:55,120 --> 02:13:58,630
has been way ahead of the changes , the 

3126
02:13:58,630 --> 02:14:00,960
positive changes in the civilian 

3127
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:03,182
criminal justice system in terms of the 

3128
02:14:03,182 --> 02:14:05,516
rights of the accused and of defendants . 

3129
02:14:05,516 --> 02:14:07,238
Yet today grapples with racial 

3130
02:14:07,238 --> 02:14:09,016
disparities in the disciplinary 

3131
02:14:09,016 --> 02:14:11,238
treatment of men and women . And you've 

3132
02:14:11,238 --> 02:14:13,349
won . That is where we are today , in 

3133
02:14:13,349 --> 02:14:15,880
our nation and in our military , and it 

3134
02:14:15,890 --> 02:14:18,670
cannot be where we are tomorrow . I 

3135
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:21,140
have work to do , and we need to do it 

3136
02:14:21,140 --> 02:14:24,490
now . Gentlemen , I take a lot of stock 

3137
02:14:24,500 --> 02:14:26,556
in the work of the Joo and they came 

3138
02:14:26,556 --> 02:14:28,389
back . I thought with the with a 

3139
02:14:28,389 --> 02:14:30,056
thoughtful report and list of 

3140
02:14:30,056 --> 02:14:31,944
recommendations on how we can get 

3141
02:14:31,944 --> 02:14:35,460
better . And my question is , what more 

3142
02:14:35,460 --> 02:14:38,300
did you need from Congress in order to 

3143
02:14:38,310 --> 02:14:41,860
complete your evaluation of the causes 

3144
02:14:41,870 --> 02:14:44,070
of any disparities in the military 

3145
02:14:44,070 --> 02:14:47,900
justice system ? And are you consulting 

3146
02:14:47,910 --> 02:14:51,750
any outside resource Is that 

3147
02:14:51,750 --> 02:14:55,100
have expertise in this area ? In order 

3148
02:14:55,110 --> 02:14:57,320
to complete this evaluation , 

3149
02:15:01,640 --> 02:15:03,807
we start with the army will go down in 

3150
02:15:03,807 --> 02:15:06,084
the Air Force , and I am a PT this man . 

3151
02:15:06,084 --> 02:15:08,307
Think , Congressman Brad , thank you so 

3152
02:15:08,307 --> 02:15:10,307
much for the question as to what we 

3153
02:15:10,307 --> 02:15:12,251
need from Congress . I think a Zai 

3154
02:15:12,251 --> 02:15:14,251
mentioned my statement that Karen , 

3155
02:15:14,251 --> 02:15:16,418
attention the desire , the passion you 

3156
02:15:16,418 --> 02:15:18,529
bring to these issues to help us help 

3157
02:15:18,529 --> 02:15:20,807
ourselves to see ourselves as critical . 

3158
02:15:20,807 --> 02:15:23,210
So I think that we'll continue . I know 

3159
02:15:23,210 --> 02:15:25,220
it will . And I want you to know 

3160
02:15:25,220 --> 02:15:27,442
personally , I welcome it , and so does 

3161
02:15:27,442 --> 02:15:29,430
the army leadership with respect 

3162
02:15:29,430 --> 02:15:31,430
outside . Resource is , sir , where 

3163
02:15:31,430 --> 02:15:33,430
were sort of within with respect to 

3164
02:15:33,430 --> 02:15:35,541
cause ality . We're in the very early 

3165
02:15:35,541 --> 02:15:37,652
stages of figuring out what can cause 

3166
02:15:37,652 --> 02:15:40,660
this . So we're developing a framework ? 

3167
02:15:40,740 --> 02:15:42,820
Well , this this very week and last 

3168
02:15:42,820 --> 02:15:45,100
week to figure that out , I fully 

3169
02:15:45,100 --> 02:15:47,280
expect that that will include outside 

3170
02:15:47,290 --> 02:15:49,580
assistance . Thank you , sir . Thank 

3171
02:15:49,580 --> 02:15:53,330
you . Abrahamic . Sir . I 

3172
02:15:53,330 --> 02:15:56,890
think Section 5 40 i of the Indy A was 

3173
02:15:56,900 --> 02:15:58,956
excellent road map . I think at that 

3174
02:15:58,956 --> 02:16:01,640
point was emphasized by the witness 

3175
02:16:01,640 --> 02:16:05,450
from the G a . O . I think the 

3176
02:16:05,460 --> 02:16:08,820
focus on data collection and then solid 

3177
02:16:08,820 --> 02:16:11,700
assessment understanding and then what 

3178
02:16:11,700 --> 02:16:13,811
to do about the disparities is is the 

3179
02:16:13,811 --> 02:16:16,190
right way ahead . I agree with General 

3180
02:16:16,190 --> 02:16:20,120
PD on outside assistance . I think that 

3181
02:16:20,120 --> 02:16:22,287
is going to be important . This Look , 

3182
02:16:22,287 --> 02:16:24,509
this look be deliberate . That would be 

3183
02:16:24,509 --> 02:16:26,750
thoughtful . Um , and it's not gonna be 

3184
02:16:26,750 --> 02:16:28,590
over quick . We're gonna have to 

3185
02:16:28,590 --> 02:16:30,812
continue this effort . And that's where 

3186
02:16:30,812 --> 02:16:32,979
I think the outside resource is convey 

3187
02:16:32,979 --> 02:16:34,146
incredibly helpful . 

3188
02:16:37,200 --> 02:16:40,650
General Rockwell . Sir , I I have 

3189
02:16:41,290 --> 02:16:43,990
I have a lot of faith in what r i g 

3190
02:16:43,990 --> 02:16:46,840
independent reviews going to do . Ah , 

3191
02:16:47,040 --> 02:16:49,190
I have a lot of faith that they're 

3192
02:16:49,190 --> 02:16:51,079
gonna look at this internally and 

3193
02:16:51,079 --> 02:16:53,710
holistically . I also have ah , a lot 

3194
02:16:53,710 --> 02:16:57,490
of faith in our more manpower and 

3195
02:16:57,490 --> 02:17:00,450
reserve in a one team who's leading the 

3196
02:17:00,450 --> 02:17:02,450
effort now , You asked the question 

3197
02:17:02,450 --> 02:17:04,561
about what kind of outside help we're 

3198
02:17:04,561 --> 02:17:07,540
getting , Uh , that that 

3199
02:17:08,740 --> 02:17:11,800
that man power and personnel team is 

3200
02:17:11,800 --> 02:17:14,850
getting a lot of outside help . 

3201
02:17:15,400 --> 02:17:17,460
Eso I have . I have quite a bit of 

3202
02:17:17,460 --> 02:17:20,230
faith in that to see what else can we 

3203
02:17:20,230 --> 02:17:22,920
do to get to get to this elusive 

3204
02:17:22,930 --> 02:17:26,120
solution set here , General ? Actually , 

3205
02:17:27,960 --> 02:17:30,170
Mr Congressman , I don't believe that 

3206
02:17:30,170 --> 02:17:31,948
this time we need any help from 

3207
02:17:31,948 --> 02:17:33,726
Congress , but I appreciate the 

3208
02:17:33,726 --> 02:17:35,837
opportunity to testify here . We just 

3209
02:17:35,837 --> 02:17:38,059
have a lot of work to do . We just have 

3210
02:17:38,059 --> 02:17:40,226
to get after this that we realize that 

3211
02:17:40,226 --> 02:17:42,392
we're at the beginning . We're looking 

3212
02:17:42,392 --> 02:17:44,614
at Dad . I was trying to understand the 

3213
02:17:44,614 --> 02:17:46,726
data , but there's a lot of hard work 

3214
02:17:46,726 --> 02:17:48,726
that has to be done . And again , I 

3215
02:17:48,726 --> 02:17:50,948
keep , you know , you know , the common 

3216
02:17:50,948 --> 02:17:50,940
on is my boss . I keep mentioning him 

3217
02:17:50,940 --> 02:17:53,051
because he has made this an important 

3218
02:17:53,051 --> 02:17:55,410
plank in his competency , and he's 

3219
02:17:55,410 --> 02:17:57,466
driving it . And I think that that's 

3220
02:17:57,466 --> 02:17:59,577
what we need throughout every echelon 

3221
02:17:59,577 --> 02:18:01,688
of the Marine Corps . Commanders need 

3222
02:18:01,688 --> 02:18:03,743
to drive this . They need to make it 

3223
02:18:03,743 --> 02:18:05,743
important . And I think that starts 

3224
02:18:05,743 --> 02:18:07,966
thes candidate open conversations about 

3225
02:18:07,966 --> 02:18:10,188
how we get after this . And that's what 

3226
02:18:10,188 --> 02:18:12,410
the Marine Corps is doing . Thank you , 

3227
02:18:12,410 --> 02:18:15,560
madam Chair . Thank you , Mr Brown . Mr . 

3228
02:18:15,560 --> 02:18:17,970
Kelly , you have any final words ? All 

3229
02:18:17,971 --> 02:18:20,450
right , generals and admirals . Thank 

3230
02:18:20,450 --> 02:18:22,394
you so much for your participation 

3231
02:18:22,394 --> 02:18:25,430
today and for your commitment to the 

3232
02:18:25,430 --> 02:18:28,300
rule of law . Let me just end with a 

3233
02:18:28,300 --> 02:18:31,720
few comments . 5 40 I was put in the nd 

3234
02:18:31,720 --> 02:18:34,390
a Not by you , not at your request , 

3235
02:18:35,020 --> 02:18:38,480
but Congress is request . So while 

3236
02:18:38,480 --> 02:18:41,150
you're relying on that now too , 

3237
02:18:42,620 --> 02:18:44,620
recognize that there was work to be 

3238
02:18:44,620 --> 02:18:47,460
done . It would have been a whole lot 

3239
02:18:47,650 --> 02:18:49,860
better if it had come from you . 

3240
02:18:51,180 --> 02:18:53,291
General ECI . You've said it a number 

3241
02:18:53,291 --> 02:18:55,513
of times . It starts at the top and you 

3242
02:18:55,513 --> 02:18:59,060
are right . And I hope you convey to 

3243
02:18:59,070 --> 02:19:03,050
all of your , um , chiefs of 

3244
02:19:03,050 --> 02:19:06,180
staff how critical this is to the 

3245
02:19:06,181 --> 02:19:08,600
Congress of the United States . General 

3246
02:19:08,600 --> 02:19:11,470
PTU said that much like sexual assault 

3247
02:19:11,470 --> 02:19:13,692
and sexual harassment in the military , 

3248
02:19:13,840 --> 02:19:17,590
we have to focus on this with the same 

3249
02:19:17,590 --> 02:19:19,850
laser focus that we have provided for 

3250
02:19:19,850 --> 02:19:22,300
that issue . And I agree with you . Um , 

3251
02:19:22,450 --> 02:19:25,930
we are at a transformational point 

3252
02:19:25,940 --> 02:19:29,220
in this country civil , civilian 

3253
02:19:29,521 --> 02:19:32,660
and military wise , and 

3254
02:19:33,500 --> 02:19:36,870
I think that there is a lot of work to 

3255
02:19:36,870 --> 02:19:39,530
dio . There's a lot of data that 

3256
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:44,920
but to make sure it is across all of 

3257
02:19:44,920 --> 02:19:46,950
the services and that there is 

3258
02:19:46,950 --> 02:19:50,500
transparency , I 

3259
02:19:50,500 --> 02:19:53,410
hope that we don't have to have another 

3260
02:19:53,420 --> 02:19:57,200
hearing where we have outside groups 

3261
02:19:57,200 --> 02:19:59,256
coming to us and saying we can't get 

3262
02:19:59,256 --> 02:20:02,550
the information G a o in a number of 

3263
02:20:02,550 --> 02:20:04,772
circumstances said she couldn't get the 

3264
02:20:04,772 --> 02:20:08,060
information . We have to be forthcoming 

3265
02:20:08,310 --> 02:20:10,421
to the American people . We intend to 

3266
02:20:10,421 --> 02:20:12,590
continue this work . We will have you 

3267
02:20:12,590 --> 02:20:15,300
back to see how you're doing and hopes 

3268
02:20:15,300 --> 02:20:17,356
that you're going to be making great 

3269
02:20:17,356 --> 02:20:21,270
strides in dealing with the anti racism 

3270
02:20:21,279 --> 02:20:25,120
that we have now have to in view in 

3271
02:20:25,370 --> 02:20:27,740
society . Generally with that , we 

3272
02:20:27,740 --> 02:20:31,250
stand adjourned no .