1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,350 MS escobar is now recognized . Thank 2 00:00:03,350 --> 00:00:05,461 you Mr Chairman gentlemen , thank you 3 00:00:05,461 --> 00:00:08,270 so much for your incredible leadership , 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,502 your patriotism and your service to our 5 00:00:10,502 --> 00:00:14,140 country ? I am very grateful for it . I 6 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:16,029 want to begin by saying that I am 7 00:00:16,029 --> 00:00:18,251 incredibly privileged to represent Fort 8 00:00:18,251 --> 00:00:20,510 Bliss . I represent el paso texas and 9 00:00:20,510 --> 00:00:22,710 Fort Bliss is offering hospitality 10 00:00:22,710 --> 00:00:25,310 right now to nearly 10,000 afghan 11 00:00:25,310 --> 00:00:27,850 guests . And I I want to say to those 12 00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:30,480 service members how proud I am of the 13 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,591 work that they're doing to offer that 14 00:00:32,591 --> 00:00:34,750 hospitality . I had the privilege to 15 00:00:34,750 --> 00:00:38,020 tour the Dona ana village last month 16 00:00:38,030 --> 00:00:40,030 with North um Commander General Van 17 00:00:40,030 --> 00:00:42,120 Herck got to speak to many of those 18 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,000 service members . Morale is high and I 19 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,056 could not be prouder of what they're 20 00:00:47,056 --> 00:00:49,000 doing . Had an opportunity also to 21 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,290 speak to our afghan guests as well . Um 22 00:00:51,290 --> 00:00:53,401 and get a sense from them how they're 23 00:00:53,401 --> 00:00:56,020 doing . We know that the die was cast 24 00:00:56,030 --> 00:00:58,750 with the Doha agreement , an agreement 25 00:00:58,750 --> 00:01:00,750 that former president trump entered 26 00:01:00,750 --> 00:01:02,861 into with the taliban and the taliban 27 00:01:02,861 --> 00:01:05,080 alone . We have learned that that 28 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:07,257 agreement , it was that agreement that 29 00:01:07,257 --> 00:01:10,170 demoralized the Afghan army and the 30 00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:12,990 taliban moved in and began making deals 31 00:01:12,990 --> 00:01:15,460 with them which expedited their control . 32 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,890 We know that that demoralization 33 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:21,610 contributed to the rapid fall the rapid 34 00:01:21,610 --> 00:01:23,666 fall of Afghanistan which shocked us 35 00:01:23,666 --> 00:01:26,340 all . General Milley earlier , you told 36 00:01:26,340 --> 00:01:28,580 us that when former President Trump 37 00:01:28,590 --> 00:01:31,370 entered into the Doha agreement , there 38 00:01:31,370 --> 00:01:34,100 was a setting out of very specific 39 00:01:34,110 --> 00:01:37,020 conditions that were to be met by the 40 00:01:37,020 --> 00:01:39,980 time of the May one draw down ? Is that 41 00:01:39,980 --> 00:01:43,100 correct ? That's correct . General 42 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:45,211 Milley , how many of those conditions 43 00:01:45,211 --> 00:01:47,211 have been met when former President 44 00:01:47,211 --> 00:01:50,180 Trump then announced he wanted to speed 45 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:53,740 up the withdrawal from May 1 to January 46 00:01:53,750 --> 00:01:56,510 15 , 2020 . There was only one 47 00:01:56,510 --> 00:01:58,730 condition that was met . That was the 48 00:01:58,730 --> 00:02:01,670 condition that asked the or that the 49 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:03,650 taliban committed to not striking 50 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:05,862 against U . S . Forces and our 51 00:02:05,862 --> 00:02:08,140 coalition forces which they did not do . 52 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,110 And when president then President trump 53 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,630 announced the expedited drawdown , was 54 00:02:14,630 --> 00:02:17,930 he aware that four of the five 55 00:02:17,930 --> 00:02:21,790 conditions had not been met ? Um I 56 00:02:21,790 --> 00:02:24,740 believe . Yes . Do you know the 57 00:02:24,740 --> 00:02:27,000 significance if there is any of the 58 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,560 January 15 expedited draw down date ? 59 00:02:30,950 --> 00:02:34,890 I don't I was handed a piece 60 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:37,210 of paper and went over and talk to 61 00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:39,210 folks in the White House and it was 62 00:02:39,210 --> 00:02:41,099 rescinded . I don't know why that 63 00:02:41,099 --> 00:02:43,330 particular date was picked . Okay . 64 00:02:43,340 --> 00:02:45,451 Have we learned or do we know whether 65 00:02:45,451 --> 00:02:47,284 those announcements of expedited 66 00:02:47,284 --> 00:02:50,660 withdrawal added to or exacerbated , 67 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:52,880 exacerbated the demoralized nature of 68 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,490 the afghan army While the 11 69 00:02:56,490 --> 00:02:59,810 November border was not 70 00:02:59,810 --> 00:03:03,000 announced . But the Draw down to 2500 71 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,910 was I mean I don't know if actually in 72 00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:07,688 the sense that we have detailed 73 00:03:07,688 --> 00:03:09,890 reporting but I think I believe and 74 00:03:09,890 --> 00:03:12,270 we'll do this in a ers . I think that 75 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:14,548 was a one of many contributing factors . 76 00:03:14,548 --> 00:03:16,381 Not the only one but one of many 77 00:03:16,381 --> 00:03:18,603 contributing factors to the declination 78 00:03:18,603 --> 00:03:20,659 of the morale of the afghan security 79 00:03:20,659 --> 00:03:22,770 forces . Thank you . General Milley , 80 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:24,900 you've also described the outcome of 81 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:27,380 this withdrawal as a strategic failure . 82 00:03:27,390 --> 00:03:29,630 Can you share with us what would have 83 00:03:29,630 --> 00:03:32,200 been considered success for the 84 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,430 administration , the service members 85 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:36,374 and military experts who have been 86 00:03:36,374 --> 00:03:38,630 involved in this conflict for over two 87 00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:41,380 decades and what it would have taken 88 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:44,590 for us to get to success , I think , 89 00:03:44,590 --> 00:03:48,370 and I've my opinion was , and um 90 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:50,102 that success would have been a 91 00:03:50,102 --> 00:03:51,880 negotiated solution between the 92 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,769 government of Afghanistan and the 93 00:03:53,769 --> 00:03:55,602 Taliban for shared power sharing 94 00:03:55,602 --> 00:03:57,769 arrangement in their government and an 95 00:03:57,769 --> 00:04:00,110 end to the civil war in that manner . I 96 00:04:00,110 --> 00:04:02,221 also assessed that the probability of 97 00:04:02,221 --> 00:04:04,443 that actually happening was low , but I 98 00:04:04,443 --> 00:04:06,610 did think that there was a possibility 99 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:08,666 and it wasn't zero . So a negotiated 100 00:04:08,666 --> 00:04:10,666 solution , I think was probably the 101 00:04:10,666 --> 00:04:12,721 best way to describe a proper end of 102 00:04:12,721 --> 00:04:14,943 this war . I don't think that there was 103 00:04:14,943 --> 00:04:18,250 a military solution uh by us to destroy 104 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:21,310 defeat the Taliban . I think that was 105 00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:23,510 not in the cards . And I didn't think 106 00:04:23,510 --> 00:04:26,060 at the time That if we sustained a 107 00:04:26,060 --> 00:04:28,282 level of effort in Afghanistan with our 108 00:04:28,282 --> 00:04:30,960 military , 2530 500 in those ranges . I 109 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,071 didn't think the Taliban could defeat 110 00:04:33,071 --> 00:04:35,238 the Afghan security forces . Ah , that 111 00:04:35,238 --> 00:04:37,293 was my assessments at the time and I 112 00:04:37,293 --> 00:04:39,520 thought success meant uh a negotiated 113 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,742 settlement between the government , the 114 00:04:41,742 --> 00:04:43,576 Taliban and have a power sharing 115 00:04:43,576 --> 00:04:45,853 arrangement to end the war ? Thank you . 116 00:04:45,853 --> 00:04:48,020 General Mills Millie , I have about 15 117 00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:50,187 seconds . Secretary Austin has the U . 118 00:04:50,187 --> 00:04:52,353 S . Military and Department of Defense 119 00:04:52,353 --> 00:04:54,576 begun to re imagine any of our existing 120 00:04:54,576 --> 00:04:56,631 involvements abroad to better assess 121 00:04:56,631 --> 00:04:58,798 risk of a fallout . Such as this one . 122 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:02,190 We continue to take a look at ourselves 123 00:05:02,190 --> 00:05:04,730 across the board and how we're uh and 124 00:05:04,730 --> 00:05:06,841 the gentle lady's time has expired so 125 00:05:06,841 --> 00:05:08,786 that will have to be taken for the 126 00:05:08,786 --> 00:05:10,952 record . Um Mr johnson is recognized . 127 00:05:10,952 --> 00:05:12,952 Thank you . Mr Chairman . There has 128 00:05:12,952 --> 00:05:14,952 been a dispute here today about the 129 00:05:14,952 --> 00:05:17,008 actual words that were shared in the 130 00:05:17,008 --> 00:05:18,841 abc news George , Stephanopoulos 131 00:05:18,841 --> 00:05:21,008 interview with the president . We took 132 00:05:21,008 --> 00:05:19,790 the liberty of getting the full 133 00:05:19,790 --> 00:05:21,957 transcript . I'm going to read you the 134 00:05:21,957 --> 00:05:24,290 relevant excerpt and ask you a question . 135 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:24,130 Mr Chairman . I ask unanimous consent 136 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:26,352 to enter the transcript into the record 137 00:05:26,352 --> 00:05:28,463 without objection . So ordered . So , 138 00:05:28,463 --> 00:05:30,574 Stephanopoulos asked this Quote , but 139 00:05:30,574 --> 00:05:32,686 your military advisers warned against 140 00:05:32,686 --> 00:05:32,630 withdrawing on this timeline . They 141 00:05:32,630 --> 00:05:34,890 wanted you to keep about 2500 troops 142 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:37,680 biden . No , they didn't . It was split 143 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:39,810 that that wasn't true . That wasn't 144 00:05:39,810 --> 00:05:41,900 true . Stephanopoulos , they didn't 145 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:43,900 tell you that they wanted troops to 146 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,750 stay biden . No . Not at not . In terms 147 00:05:46,750 --> 00:05:48,917 of whether we were going to get out in 148 00:05:48,917 --> 00:05:51,028 a time frame all troops . They didn't 149 00:05:51,028 --> 00:05:53,139 argue against that . Stephanopoulos . 150 00:05:53,139 --> 00:05:55,250 So no one told your military advisers 151 00:05:55,250 --> 00:05:57,580 did not tell you quote , no , we should 152 00:05:57,580 --> 00:05:59,580 just keep 2500 troops . It's been a 153 00:05:59,580 --> 00:06:01,691 stable situation for the last several 154 00:06:01,691 --> 00:06:03,469 years . We can do that . We can 155 00:06:03,469 --> 00:06:05,636 continue to do that question , Biden . 156 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,240 No , no one said that to me that I can 157 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,300 recall . So gentlemen , with all due 158 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:12,411 respect , the american people deserve 159 00:06:12,411 --> 00:06:14,633 to know the truth in all this . They're 160 00:06:14,633 --> 00:06:16,800 asking us to get the truth . So here's 161 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:16,410 the thing . There's only three 162 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:18,190 possibilities here . Either the 163 00:06:18,190 --> 00:06:20,301 President lied to the american people 164 00:06:20,540 --> 00:06:22,910 or he legitimately cannot remember the 165 00:06:22,910 --> 00:06:25,440 council of his top military advisors 166 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,440 and winding down the longest war in 167 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,790 american history . Or you have not been 168 00:06:29,790 --> 00:06:31,790 fully accurate under oath . General 169 00:06:31,790 --> 00:06:33,846 Mackenzie , I'll ask you which is it 170 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,184 going to be very direct ? I cannot 171 00:06:37,184 --> 00:06:39,407 share advice . I give the President And 172 00:06:39,407 --> 00:06:41,518 I will not do that . I will also tell 173 00:06:41,518 --> 00:06:43,240 you though , that it's been my 174 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,240 consistent position throughout this 175 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:45,020 hearing and hearing yesterday , that I 176 00:06:45,020 --> 00:06:47,076 believe the appropriate level of our 177 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:49,242 forces in Afghanistan should have been 178 00:06:49,242 --> 00:06:51,464 2500 . I think we can take that to mean 179 00:06:51,464 --> 00:06:53,687 that you gave him that advice . I would 180 00:06:53,687 --> 00:06:55,909 not take it to mean anything other than 181 00:06:55,909 --> 00:06:57,909 the world's Fair enough . Secretary 182 00:06:57,909 --> 00:06:57,610 Austin , what what what is it ? What 183 00:06:57,610 --> 00:06:59,832 are we what are we to believe by seeing 184 00:06:59,832 --> 00:07:01,888 all this ? Well , first of all , you 185 00:07:01,888 --> 00:07:04,054 heard me say earlier , congressman and 186 00:07:04,054 --> 00:07:06,110 I support the President's decision . 187 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:08,332 You also heard me say that I don't view 188 00:07:08,332 --> 00:07:10,350 this choice as a no cost , No risk 189 00:07:10,350 --> 00:07:13,080 choice . I do believe that if we that 190 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,070 if we left 2500 people there for a long 191 00:07:17,070 --> 00:07:18,959 and extended period of time , you 192 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:20,903 eventually have to reinforce those 193 00:07:20,903 --> 00:07:22,959 people because the Taliban was gonna 194 00:07:22,959 --> 00:07:24,681 was committed to attacking the 195 00:07:24,681 --> 00:07:26,848 secretary . I understand all that what 196 00:07:26,848 --> 00:07:29,014 we're trying to get to is what did the 197 00:07:29,014 --> 00:07:31,126 president know ? Did he forget what I 198 00:07:31,126 --> 00:07:33,070 was told to him or is he not being 199 00:07:33,070 --> 00:07:34,792 truthful with you ? That is an 200 00:07:34,792 --> 00:07:37,070 inappropriate question ? Well you made . 201 00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:36,940 But the american people don't . The 202 00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:38,773 american people want and deserve 203 00:07:38,773 --> 00:07:40,662 accountability . And we even have 204 00:07:40,662 --> 00:07:42,884 service members like Lieutenant Colonel 205 00:07:42,884 --> 00:07:42,710 Stewart Schell are being thrown in the 206 00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:44,821 brig for suggesting that the public's 207 00:07:44,821 --> 00:07:46,988 faith in our institutions continues to 208 00:07:46,988 --> 00:07:49,560 erode precisely because everyone in the 209 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,800 D . C . Bubble appears to have some 210 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,670 sort of immunity from the basic 211 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:55,614 standards . The rest of America is 212 00:07:55,614 --> 00:07:57,614 expected to live by . This is quite 213 00:07:57,614 --> 00:07:59,837 clearly one of the biggest military and 214 00:07:59,837 --> 00:08:01,726 foreign policy blunders since our 215 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:03,640 withdrawal from Vietnam . So my 216 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,918 question for all of you is very simple . 217 00:08:05,918 --> 00:08:08,850 Where does the blame lie ? Mr Austin ? 218 00:08:08,860 --> 00:08:11,250 Secretary Austin ? Well first of all I 219 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:13,030 you know I am responsible for 220 00:08:13,030 --> 00:08:15,410 everything that happens that the D . O . 221 00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:18,480 D . Does and it does a lot . I remain 222 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,970 focused on defending this country and 223 00:08:20,980 --> 00:08:22,980 that's going to be my focus for the 224 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:25,570 foreseeable future . Secondly , you 225 00:08:25,570 --> 00:08:27,790 know I would remind you that we just 226 00:08:27,790 --> 00:08:31,750 evacuated 124,000 people . I 227 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,704 appreciate , I appreciate that you 228 00:08:33,704 --> 00:08:35,593 think that that was a big success 229 00:08:35,593 --> 00:08:37,427 evacuation but the blame for the 230 00:08:37,427 --> 00:08:39,427 disastrous withdrawal that everyone 231 00:08:39,427 --> 00:08:41,593 agrees was a disaster . Who's to blame 232 00:08:41,593 --> 00:08:41,060 for that ? 233 00:08:45,740 --> 00:08:47,740 Let the silence speaks for itself . 234 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:49,907 General Milley . You said earlier this 235 00:08:49,907 --> 00:08:52,073 month that it's possible that we would 236 00:08:52,073 --> 00:08:51,970 work with the taliban that conduct 237 00:08:51,970 --> 00:08:54,192 strikes against IsIS K in Afghanistan , 238 00:08:54,192 --> 00:08:56,192 presumably referencing our over the 239 00:08:56,192 --> 00:08:58,248 horizon capabilities . But today you 240 00:08:58,248 --> 00:09:00,081 testified , you said quote , the 241 00:09:00,081 --> 00:09:01,637 taliban remains a terrorist 242 00:09:01,637 --> 00:09:03,970 organization with ties to Al Qaeda . So , 243 00:09:03,970 --> 00:09:06,137 are you now suggesting that the United 244 00:09:06,137 --> 00:09:08,192 States formed some sort of strategic 245 00:09:08,192 --> 00:09:07,960 partnership with a terrorist 246 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,300 organization ? No , absolutely not . 247 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:12,467 I'm not suggesting that at all . Could 248 00:09:12,467 --> 00:09:14,522 I go to your first question though , 249 00:09:14,522 --> 00:09:16,730 please , um like frank McKenzie , like 250 00:09:16,730 --> 00:09:18,563 General Mackenzie , it's not our 251 00:09:18,563 --> 00:09:21,870 purview to share specific discussions 252 00:09:21,870 --> 00:09:24,092 with the President in terms of national 253 00:09:24,092 --> 00:09:26,203 security decision making . But it was 254 00:09:26,203 --> 00:09:29,220 our opinion at the time and it's been 255 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:31,680 very consistent . And I would also tell 256 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:34,300 you that this administration did and I 257 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:36,680 was part of it along with the Joint 258 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:39,210 Chiefs , a very rigorous process . And 259 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:42,570 this president uh was was one of the 260 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:45,070 most informed decisions uh that you can 261 00:09:45,070 --> 00:09:48,090 imagine uh in terms of all sides of the 262 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:50,257 argument , we in the military , in the 263 00:09:50,257 --> 00:09:52,534 uniform military , we look at the cost , 264 00:09:52,534 --> 00:09:54,312 the risk of force , the benefit 265 00:09:54,312 --> 00:09:56,534 etcetera in a narrow focused view . The 266 00:09:56,534 --> 00:09:58,757 other decision makers have a much wider 267 00:09:58,757 --> 00:10:00,757 angle . I appreciate that , but but 268 00:10:00,757 --> 00:10:02,979 what we're left within nine seconds . I 269 00:10:02,979 --> 00:10:04,979 have left is that we're supposed to 270 00:10:04,979 --> 00:10:04,650 believe that the President was either 271 00:10:04,650 --> 00:10:06,539 not informed by you of these very 272 00:10:06,539 --> 00:10:08,539 important factors or he forgot it . 273 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,760 Either one is alarming time is expired 274 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:14,307 since the transcript was submitted for 275 00:10:14,307 --> 00:10:16,473 the record . We read through this kind 276 00:10:16,473 --> 00:10:18,584 of quick But Mr Stop . Stephanopoulos 277 00:10:18,584 --> 00:10:20,990 says your top military advisors warns 278 00:10:20,990 --> 00:10:23,157 against withdrawing in this timeline . 279 00:10:23,157 --> 00:10:25,101 They wanted you to keep about 2500 280 00:10:25,101 --> 00:10:28,560 troops . No they didn't . It was split . 281 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,440 That's what the President said . He 282 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,470 didn't say no . Nobody advised me it 283 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,250 was split . Mr Chairman read down to 284 00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:39,472 more like I'll be done just second then 285 00:10:39,472 --> 00:10:41,528 I'll yield it back to you . And then 286 00:10:41,528 --> 00:10:45,150 Stephanopoulos says no Um no one said 287 00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:47,317 we should just keep 2500 troops . It's 288 00:10:47,317 --> 00:10:50,440 been a stable situation for the last 289 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,270 several years . We can do that , we can 290 00:10:53,270 --> 00:10:57,070 continue to do that . No no one said 291 00:10:57,070 --> 00:10:59,350 that to me that I can recall . No one 292 00:10:59,350 --> 00:11:01,980 said it's been a stable situation for 293 00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:04,313 the last several years . We can do that . 294 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,770 We can continue to do that . Those are 295 00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:08,870 the words on the transcript that was 296 00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:11,092 just submitted . I'll leave it to other 297 00:11:11,092 --> 00:11:13,148 people to interpret that . But those 298 00:11:13,148 --> 00:11:15,580 are the actual words and yes I will 299 00:11:15,580 --> 00:11:17,469 yield Mr johnson if you can do it 300 00:11:17,469 --> 00:11:19,413 quickly . Sorry I want to get some 301 00:11:19,413 --> 00:11:19,150 other people but I should give you the 302 00:11:19,150 --> 00:11:21,428 chance , go ahead , do it very quickly . 303 00:11:21,428 --> 00:11:23,428 Mr Chairman , I appreciate that . I 304 00:11:23,428 --> 00:11:25,539 mean you just read it at face value . 305 00:11:25,539 --> 00:11:27,817 Stephanopoulos says so no one told you , 306 00:11:27,817 --> 00:11:27,770 your military advisers did not tell , 307 00:11:27,770 --> 00:11:30,330 you know , we should just keep 2500 308 00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:32,441 troops . It's been a stable situation 309 00:11:32,441 --> 00:11:34,608 for the last several years . We can do 310 00:11:34,608 --> 00:11:34,230 that . We can continue to do that , 311 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,900 biden says no , no one said that to me 312 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:38,956 that I read quickly through the it's 313 00:11:38,956 --> 00:11:41,178 been a stable situation part but that's 314 00:11:41,178 --> 00:11:43,178 kind of the important part . Okay , 315 00:11:43,178 --> 00:11:45,178 well look , it's open to individual 316 00:11:45,178 --> 00:11:47,178 interpretation . Okay . But we both 317 00:11:47,178 --> 00:11:47,140 made our point all right . But I think 318 00:11:47,140 --> 00:11:49,196 the american people use common sense 319 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:51,418 and it's alarming whatever it is . I go 320 00:11:51,418 --> 00:11:53,529 back Miss Lori , you are recognized . 321 00:11:53,529 --> 00:11:55,584 Well thank you . And I would like to 322 00:11:55,584 --> 00:11:57,584 start General Milley by associating 323 00:11:57,584 --> 00:11:59,751 myself with the remarks that MS Cheney 324 00:11:59,751 --> 00:12:01,918 made at the beginning of her questions 325 00:12:01,918 --> 00:12:03,640 and focus on the time frame um 326 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,862 immediately following the 2020 election 327 00:12:05,862 --> 00:12:08,690 on november 9th 2020 Secretary of 328 00:12:08,690 --> 00:12:10,930 Defense , Mark S Neighbor was replaced 329 00:12:10,930 --> 00:12:12,652 by acting Secretary of Defense 330 00:12:12,652 --> 00:12:14,763 Christopher miller and additionally , 331 00:12:14,763 --> 00:12:16,930 other key leadership positions where a 332 00:12:16,930 --> 00:12:18,930 diode were abruptly filled with new 333 00:12:18,930 --> 00:12:21,097 people . General Milley did this rapid 334 00:12:21,097 --> 00:12:23,263 replacement of top senior officials at 335 00:12:23,263 --> 00:12:25,430 the Department of Defense in the final 336 00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:27,541 days of the administration . Give you 337 00:12:27,541 --> 00:12:29,763 concern regarding the transition of the 338 00:12:29,763 --> 00:12:32,780 administration . We in the military 339 00:12:32,790 --> 00:12:35,310 trained for leadership replacement from 340 00:12:35,310 --> 00:12:37,254 the time we were second Lieutenant 341 00:12:37,254 --> 00:12:39,690 fallout , one drill sort of thing . Uh 342 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:42,470 And it is clearly in the prerogative of 343 00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:44,526 any president to replace any cabinet 344 00:12:44,526 --> 00:12:46,748 member or any point at all at any point 345 00:12:46,748 --> 00:12:50,170 in time . So uh that's already answer 346 00:12:50,170 --> 00:12:52,190 that we're prepared to execute at a 347 00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:54,760 moment's notice if someone is relieved 348 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,600 and General miller , did you have any 349 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,240 concerns at the time that involved the 350 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,580 potential misuse of the military for 351 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:07,960 political reasons ? I was determined to 352 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,570 make sure that the U . S . Military um 353 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:13,720 is properly employed . And I would 354 00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:15,952 render my advice to ensure that the U . 355 00:13:15,952 --> 00:13:18,760 S . Military is employed . Um Not for 356 00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:22,080 political use . Thank you . And it's 357 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,247 been referenced a few times during the 358 00:13:24,247 --> 00:13:26,469 hearing today that um you did cooperate 359 00:13:26,469 --> 00:13:28,802 with several authors for specific books . 360 00:13:28,802 --> 00:13:32,320 Um And it seems as though your choice 361 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,431 to do that was that you wanted to get 362 00:13:34,431 --> 00:13:36,830 the story straight the facts um out 363 00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:38,886 there um about different things that 364 00:13:38,886 --> 00:13:41,250 transpired during this timeframe . Um 365 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:43,390 And you acknowledge today that you 366 00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:45,970 frequently speak to reporters and um 367 00:13:45,970 --> 00:13:48,137 also yesterday in comments to senators 368 00:13:48,137 --> 00:13:50,450 that you sometimes do that anonymously . 369 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,070 Um I think that we would all like full 370 00:13:53,070 --> 00:13:55,430 transparency and full understanding um 371 00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:57,374 of the facts surrounding this time 372 00:13:57,374 --> 00:13:59,541 frame . And as you know , I'm a member 373 00:13:59,541 --> 00:14:01,708 of the select committee to investigate 374 00:14:01,708 --> 00:14:04,550 the events surrounding January six . so 375 00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:06,606 I can speak for the committee to say 376 00:14:06,606 --> 00:14:08,828 that will be very interested to have uh 377 00:14:08,828 --> 00:14:10,994 you know the same level of information 378 00:14:10,994 --> 00:14:13,106 um and be able to speak to you in the 379 00:14:13,106 --> 00:14:15,050 future about those topics and I'll 380 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:16,717 shift now to another topic of 381 00:14:16,717 --> 00:14:18,939 discussion . Um , and if I could ask my 382 00:14:18,939 --> 00:14:21,106 colleagues to please respect my time . 383 00:14:21,106 --> 00:14:23,970 Um , so generally , um , you've spent 384 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:26,850 half of your career fighting a war in 385 00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:28,906 Afghanistan , roughly . And when did 386 00:14:28,906 --> 00:14:31,190 you personally know uh , that the war 387 00:14:31,190 --> 00:14:34,260 was lost ? Um 388 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,260 Well , I think if you go back to 389 00:14:39,340 --> 00:14:41,118 5 , 6 years ago , I knew it was 390 00:14:41,118 --> 00:14:43,340 stalemated , lost as a different word , 391 00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:45,507 but I believed it was stalemated and I 392 00:14:45,507 --> 00:14:47,396 believed 5 , 6 years ago that was 393 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:49,562 unwinnable through us military means . 394 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:52,320 For several reasons , there's a 395 00:14:52,330 --> 00:14:54,274 sanctuary in Pakistan that was not 396 00:14:54,274 --> 00:14:57,230 going to be destroyed or defeated . Um , 397 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,110 and that insurgencies are highly 398 00:15:00,110 --> 00:15:03,470 political wars to begin with . And what 399 00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:05,414 was important to win is to have an 400 00:15:05,414 --> 00:15:07,581 indigenous government that was seen as 401 00:15:07,581 --> 00:15:09,748 legitimate in the eyes of the people , 402 00:15:09,748 --> 00:15:11,637 along with the military , there , 403 00:15:11,637 --> 00:15:13,748 police and army that could adequately 404 00:15:13,748 --> 00:15:15,859 deal with that situation ? But I knew 405 00:15:15,859 --> 00:15:18,081 years ago that it was stalemated , said 406 00:15:18,081 --> 00:15:21,000 that repeatedly internal and external 407 00:15:21,010 --> 00:15:23,360 and that winning would be defined as a 408 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,850 negotiated solution as most 409 00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:28,530 insurgencies are historically , uh they 410 00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:30,762 result in a negotiated solution between 411 00:15:30,762 --> 00:15:32,870 the insurgent and the regime . And I 412 00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:35,092 thought that was the best way that this 413 00:15:35,092 --> 00:15:37,259 could handle . I didn't think it was a 414 00:15:37,259 --> 00:15:39,481 military solution . So it's interesting 415 00:15:39,481 --> 00:15:41,592 to me that you use the word wedding . 416 00:15:41,592 --> 00:15:43,814 Did you think that wedding was possible 417 00:15:43,814 --> 00:15:43,030 or did you think that a stalemate or a 418 00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:45,860 status quo was really the only ultimate 419 00:15:45,860 --> 00:15:48,210 outcome that we could hope for in this 420 00:15:48,210 --> 00:15:52,120 situation ? I think Um as as I recall 421 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,287 President Bush at the very beginning , 422 00:15:54,287 --> 00:15:56,342 this thing 20 years ago said winning 423 00:15:56,342 --> 00:15:58,509 would look a lot different in this war 424 00:15:58,509 --> 00:16:00,620 or words that effect . And I think he 425 00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:03,760 was right then . And I think that a 426 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:07,410 negotiated solution was the best way of 427 00:16:07,410 --> 00:16:09,940 approaching a quote unquote win . I 428 00:16:09,940 --> 00:16:11,940 think that would have been the best 429 00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:14,051 interests of the United States and it 430 00:16:14,051 --> 00:16:16,107 would have been the best interest of 431 00:16:16,107 --> 00:16:16,080 the region and the afghan people was a 432 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,330 negotiated solution between the Taliban 433 00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:21,430 insurgents and the government . Well , 434 00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:23,597 thank you . And I saw Secretary Austin 435 00:16:23,597 --> 00:16:25,652 nodding . I know there's very little 436 00:16:25,652 --> 00:16:24,980 time left . Did you want to add 437 00:16:24,980 --> 00:16:27,202 something briefly ? Yeah , you heard me 438 00:16:27,202 --> 00:16:30,400 say at the , at the very top that that , 439 00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:32,632 you know , my my hope was that we could 440 00:16:32,632 --> 00:16:36,610 reach a negotiated uh settlement . Um a 441 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:39,080 stalemate would actually give , provide 442 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,370 the opportunity to do that for both 443 00:16:41,370 --> 00:16:43,970 sides to to negotiate an earnest if 444 00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:46,026 neither thought that they were gonna 445 00:16:46,026 --> 00:16:48,160 win . And again , uh we just never 446 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,327 reached that point because the taliban 447 00:16:50,327 --> 00:16:52,750 had advantages coming into this because 448 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:54,694 we weren't striking them . We have 449 00:16:54,694 --> 00:16:56,861 released the prisoner General , Ladies 450 00:16:56,861 --> 00:16:59,028 time has expired , appreciate a couple 451 00:16:59,028 --> 00:16:58,550 of quick announcements . So there is a 452 00:16:58,550 --> 00:17:02,110 vote on um we have a hard stop it to 453 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,410 um we're gonna stop it to , I am going 454 00:17:05,410 --> 00:17:08,190 to go vote MS Loria . Um If you could 455 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,200 take the chair of just a moment , I 456 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,367 will come back as quickly as I can and 457 00:17:12,367 --> 00:17:14,478 then for you of that obligation , but 458 00:17:14,478 --> 00:17:16,756 it's my intention to roll through that . 459 00:17:16,756 --> 00:17:18,600 Um so members , you know , vote 460 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,600 accordingly be here . I think we we 461 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,711 have Miss Jacobs who's up next on our 462 00:17:22,711 --> 00:17:24,933 side . So we have a couple of people to 463 00:17:24,933 --> 00:17:24,930 get us through that , but that's what 464 00:17:24,930 --> 00:17:26,819 we're gonna do . And miss bice is 465 00:17:26,819 --> 00:17:29,041 recognized for five minutes and I'll be 466 00:17:29,041 --> 00:17:31,097 right back . Thank you mr Chairman . 467 00:17:31,097 --> 00:17:33,208 And I want to thank the witnesses for 468 00:17:33,208 --> 00:17:35,430 being with us today . Over the last few 469 00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:35,290 weeks , I have heard an outpouring of 470 00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:37,068 concern and frustration from my 471 00:17:37,068 --> 00:17:39,260 constituents , veterans and military 472 00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:41,316 families . Chief among them who have 473 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:43,093 expressed their outrage and the 474 00:17:43,093 --> 00:17:44,760 disastrous withdrawal and the 475 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,816 abandonment of our afghan allies and 476 00:17:46,816 --> 00:17:48,704 even american citizens . I too am 477 00:17:48,704 --> 00:17:50,816 deeply outraged and have been equally 478 00:17:50,816 --> 00:17:53,038 stunned by the lack of leadership shown 479 00:17:53,038 --> 00:17:52,950 by President biden . Throughout all of 480 00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:55,800 this , the american people deserve to 481 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,467 have a full accounting of the 482 00:17:57,467 --> 00:17:59,578 President's decision making processes 483 00:17:59,578 --> 00:18:01,689 and what ultimately led to disastrous 484 00:18:01,689 --> 00:18:04,000 outcome . Gentlemen , this is not about 485 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:06,121 whether or not we should have left or 486 00:18:06,121 --> 00:18:08,620 not . This is about how we left . We 487 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:10,620 may not get all the answers and the 488 00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:12,842 public , the public deserves in today's 489 00:18:12,842 --> 00:18:15,260 hearing . Uh to know uh the facts of 490 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:17,990 surrounding this . My first question to 491 00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:20,370 part regarding bagram airbase during 492 00:18:20,370 --> 00:18:22,203 the Senate testimony yesterday . 493 00:18:22,203 --> 00:18:24,426 General Austin , you said the choice to 494 00:18:24,426 --> 00:18:26,426 a band in bagram was made carefully 495 00:18:26,426 --> 00:18:28,426 based on the mission to protect the 496 00:18:28,426 --> 00:18:30,630 embassy . What aspect of security at H 497 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:33,100 Kaaya made it more secure than bagram . 498 00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:35,580 And following that uh you mentioned in 499 00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:37,580 your opening statement , bagram had 500 00:18:37,580 --> 00:18:39,691 little strategic value . If you could 501 00:18:39,691 --> 00:18:41,802 elaborate on both of those please . I 502 00:18:41,802 --> 00:18:43,969 certainly didn't say bagram has little 503 00:18:43,969 --> 00:18:45,980 strategic value in in my opening 504 00:18:45,980 --> 00:18:48,050 statement , we can certainly we can 505 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:50,217 break it out and go by , go through it 506 00:18:50,217 --> 00:18:52,272 line by line if you'd like , I would 507 00:18:52,272 --> 00:18:54,161 point out to you that I commanded 508 00:18:54,161 --> 00:18:56,580 bagram at one point in time . So there 509 00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:58,580 may be other people in the room who 510 00:18:58,580 --> 00:19:00,747 have done that . But probably not . So 511 00:19:00,747 --> 00:19:03,280 I know a lot about bagram and uh and 512 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,800 what it offers . The key point here is 513 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,460 that the embassy I was in Kabul and 514 00:19:09,470 --> 00:19:12,940 our mission at transition was to 515 00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:16,130 provide security additional security 516 00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:19,910 for the embassy . And in any event of 517 00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:22,580 an evacuation , we would have to start 518 00:19:22,590 --> 00:19:25,970 with evacuating the embassy first . And 519 00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:29,570 so Kabul makes all I mean it provides 520 00:19:29,580 --> 00:19:31,747 everything that you need to be able to 521 00:19:31,747 --> 00:19:34,340 do that capacity , the proximity . And 522 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:36,340 so I think I think it was the right 523 00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:38,340 choice . But isn't it accurate that 524 00:19:38,340 --> 00:19:40,490 house one runway . Whereas bagram had 525 00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:42,657 multiple runways which would have made 526 00:19:42,657 --> 00:19:44,460 it easier for the evacuation of 527 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,011 individuals from . And that's a great 528 00:19:47,011 --> 00:19:49,350 point . I'd have to secure it . Now . 529 00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:51,350 The reason that we could stay there 530 00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:54,400 with 2500 people earlier um was because 531 00:19:54,410 --> 00:19:56,660 we had the Afghan security forces 532 00:19:56,670 --> 00:19:59,360 security out of perimeter of bagram . 533 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:02,051 If you no longer have that , then you 534 00:20:02,051 --> 00:20:04,162 have to commit five or 6000 troops to 535 00:20:04,162 --> 00:20:06,560 do that . And then uh security 536 00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:08,930 defendant and then run the air ops . So 537 00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:11,280 that's a substantial additional 538 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,450 commitment of resources . General 539 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:16,617 Milley or General Mackenzie , Anything 540 00:20:16,617 --> 00:20:18,730 you'd like to add , I just like to 541 00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:21,120 briefly talk about , talk about bagram . 542 00:20:21,130 --> 00:20:23,297 It has two runways but that's actually 543 00:20:23,297 --> 00:20:25,519 not what you want examining when you're 544 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:25,260 looking at , when you look at an 545 00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:27,690 airfield is an arcane thing called um 546 00:20:27,690 --> 00:20:29,860 Aug it's the ability load aircraft and 547 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:32,027 move aircraft around on the runway and 548 00:20:32,027 --> 00:20:33,916 h Kaya had better facilities than 549 00:20:33,916 --> 00:20:36,138 bagram for that . Additionally , as the 550 00:20:36,138 --> 00:20:38,249 secretary noted , the simple distance 551 00:20:38,249 --> 00:20:40,471 from where the people are , Had to be a 552 00:20:40,471 --> 00:20:42,527 planning factor . And last of course 553 00:20:42,527 --> 00:20:44,749 we're under direction to go to 0 650 to 554 00:20:44,749 --> 00:20:46,971 secure the embassy . So Barbara was not 555 00:20:46,971 --> 00:20:49,450 an option under those circumstances , I 556 00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:53,060 would add uh if I could um if you have 557 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:55,171 the assumption that there's no afghan 558 00:20:55,171 --> 00:20:57,227 army , the 73 towers at bargain is a 559 00:20:57,227 --> 00:20:59,449 minimum , there's three big gates , you 560 00:20:59,449 --> 00:21:01,616 have to have a quick reaction force is 561 00:21:01,616 --> 00:21:03,560 gonna have to patrol out to rocket 562 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,727 range and then you have to secure this 563 00:21:05,727 --> 00:21:07,671 30 miles of road between Kabul and 564 00:21:07,671 --> 00:21:07,310 bagram . We would have never been able 565 00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:09,588 to get 100 24,000 people out of bagram . 566 00:21:09,588 --> 00:21:11,754 Uh it just wouldn't have happened that 567 00:21:11,754 --> 00:21:13,699 the center of gravity of a Neo was 568 00:21:13,699 --> 00:21:15,810 always going to be a chinchilla . The 569 00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:18,730 security issues clearly are different 570 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:20,796 at each guy in there at Bagram , but 571 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:22,800 bargain was really not a feasible 572 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,200 option given numbers of troops distance 573 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,311 and the security requirements . Thank 574 00:21:27,311 --> 00:21:29,367 you , Germany follow up question you 575 00:21:29,367 --> 00:21:31,367 mentioned um , you know , having to 576 00:21:31,367 --> 00:21:33,910 evacuate so quickly . Do you trust the 577 00:21:33,910 --> 00:21:36,132 information that you are receiving from 578 00:21:36,132 --> 00:21:38,188 our intelligence community ? General 579 00:21:38,188 --> 00:21:41,730 Austin ? I have confidence in the 580 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:43,897 information that we get from the intel 581 00:21:43,897 --> 00:21:46,119 community . Yes , That doesn't say that 582 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,230 there will be 100% right all the time 583 00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:50,780 given the fact that it seems as though 584 00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:54,730 they did not at all plan for a complete 585 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:57,950 surrender of the Afghan forces upon 586 00:21:58,340 --> 00:22:01,960 the withdrawal of US troops , 587 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:06,420 they predicted that outcome but a 588 00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:10,120 different timeline . Uh as we have , 589 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:12,350 you've heard us say before . So 590 00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:18,210 in addition to the botched over the 591 00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:22,120 horizon activity that Killed 10 Afghans 592 00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:24,290 still believe that the intelligence 593 00:22:24,290 --> 00:22:26,234 community can be trusted and it is 594 00:22:26,234 --> 00:22:29,000 effective . Again , I have confidence 595 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,280 in the intel community . Uh in terms of 596 00:22:32,290 --> 00:22:34,490 General Ladies time has expired , I 597 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,300 will now recommend Miss Jacob recognize 598 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,467 MS Jacobs for five minutes . Thank you 599 00:22:39,467 --> 00:22:41,689 Madam Chair and thank you all for being 600 00:22:41,689 --> 00:22:43,689 here . I'd like to follow up on the 601 00:22:43,689 --> 00:22:45,689 questions regarding the august 29th 602 00:22:45,689 --> 00:22:47,967 drone strike that killed Zemeri Ahmadi , 603 00:22:47,967 --> 00:22:49,911 a worker for a southern California 604 00:22:49,911 --> 00:22:52,078 based aid group and nine of his family 605 00:22:52,078 --> 00:22:54,133 members , including seven Children . 606 00:22:54,133 --> 00:22:56,300 And General Mackenzie . You called the 607 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:58,411 strike a tragic mistake . And I think 608 00:22:58,411 --> 00:22:58,010 we can all agree with that 609 00:22:58,020 --> 00:23:00,540 characterization . This is an open 610 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:02,762 hearing . So I'm not going to ask about 611 00:23:02,762 --> 00:23:04,873 the specific intelligence that led to 612 00:23:04,873 --> 00:23:06,929 the strike . Um But General Milley , 613 00:23:06,929 --> 00:23:08,818 you said even after the truth was 614 00:23:08,818 --> 00:23:10,873 revealed that there was a reasonable 615 00:23:10,873 --> 00:23:12,984 certainty that the target was valid . 616 00:23:12,984 --> 00:23:14,984 Uh So I would like to know , do you 617 00:23:14,984 --> 00:23:17,096 have that same level of confidence in 618 00:23:17,096 --> 00:23:19,262 the intelligence that you have had for 619 00:23:19,262 --> 00:23:21,596 similar strikes carried out under D . O . 620 00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:25,220 D . S authority ? Yes , 621 00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:27,590 I do . I mean , intelligence is not 622 00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:31,360 perfect the intel as um 623 00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:35,390 Representative johnson just said uh our 624 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,470 vice just said it's not it's never 625 00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:39,303 perfect . Uh We're not gonna get 626 00:23:39,303 --> 00:23:41,637 perfection in the world of intelligence . 627 00:23:41,637 --> 00:23:43,692 They speak in terms of probabilistic 628 00:23:43,692 --> 00:23:46,026 language , what is more likely than not . 629 00:23:46,026 --> 00:23:48,192 And I believe that we have good reason 630 00:23:48,192 --> 00:23:50,359 to have confidence in our intelligence 631 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,526 systems . They're not perfect , but we 632 00:23:52,526 --> 00:23:54,692 have good reason to have confidence in 633 00:23:54,692 --> 00:23:56,414 them . And I think that's been 634 00:23:56,414 --> 00:23:58,470 expressed over time and the accuracy 635 00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:00,414 and precision of these strikes . I 636 00:24:00,414 --> 00:24:02,637 understand this one strike was bad . It 637 00:24:02,637 --> 00:24:04,859 was tragic . It was horrible . But that 638 00:24:04,859 --> 00:24:06,859 is not to say that the intelligence 639 00:24:06,859 --> 00:24:09,026 system as a whole is wrong . Okay . Um 640 00:24:09,026 --> 00:24:10,914 But given that we've actually had 641 00:24:10,914 --> 00:24:12,859 multiple of these mistakes that we 642 00:24:12,859 --> 00:24:15,026 already know about , including the A C 643 00:24:15,026 --> 00:24:17,030 1 30 gunship attack in 2015 that 644 00:24:17,030 --> 00:24:19,810 destroyed an MSF hospital and killed 42 645 00:24:19,810 --> 00:24:22,640 civilians . Um what assurances can you 646 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,910 give us ? And the american people that 647 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,190 our drone program has adequate 648 00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:29,420 safeguards . And Secretary Austin , you 649 00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:31,031 said that the department has 650 00:24:31,031 --> 00:24:33,142 endeavoured to learn from this latest 651 00:24:33,142 --> 00:24:35,031 mistake . What have you learned ? 652 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,820 Thanks . Um again , I would just remind 653 00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:42,080 you that I have directed a review of 654 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,850 this uh this operation . And so 655 00:24:45,860 --> 00:24:48,770 I won't make any comments on specifics 656 00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:50,780 here because because that review is 657 00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:54,030 ongoing . Um but in terms 658 00:24:54,030 --> 00:24:57,590 of our commitment to learning 659 00:24:57,590 --> 00:25:01,490 from all of our operations , uh we 660 00:25:01,490 --> 00:25:03,990 remain committed to doing that and we 661 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,260 are specifically concerned whenever 662 00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:09,350 there is uh an inadvertent loss of life 663 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,030 and an injury to civilians . And so we 664 00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:14,120 take that very seriously and we hold 665 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,700 ourselves accountable for that well , 666 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:18,700 great . And we uh in this committee 667 00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:20,811 will be looking forward to seeing the 668 00:25:20,811 --> 00:25:22,811 results of that review and and also 669 00:25:22,811 --> 00:25:25,430 having accountability . Um General 670 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,440 Mackenzie yesterday , when asked by 671 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,640 Senator Mark kelly about the over the 672 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,751 horizon counterterrorism , you said , 673 00:25:31,751 --> 00:25:33,918 and I quote as we go forward , and our 674 00:25:33,918 --> 00:25:35,973 ability to create the ecosystem that 675 00:25:35,973 --> 00:25:38,196 allows you to see on the ground and put 676 00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:40,251 it together is going to be harder in 677 00:25:40,251 --> 00:25:42,473 places like Afghanistan End , quote , I 678 00:25:42,473 --> 00:25:44,696 know many of my colleagues have already 679 00:25:44,696 --> 00:25:44,460 asked about what this means for our 680 00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:46,682 ability to counter groups like ISIS K . 681 00:25:46,682 --> 00:25:49,100 I have a different question , what does 682 00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:51,156 that mean for our ability to prevent 683 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:53,211 civilian casualties so that we don't 684 00:25:53,211 --> 00:25:55,433 see another drone strike , like the one 685 00:25:55,433 --> 00:25:57,544 that took place in Kabul . And if the 686 00:25:57,544 --> 00:25:59,711 ability to prevent civilian casualties 687 00:25:59,711 --> 00:26:01,544 becomes harder , um will you and 688 00:26:01,544 --> 00:26:03,489 centcom takes extra precautions in 689 00:26:03,489 --> 00:26:06,840 selecting target packages or how are 690 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,007 you planning to deal with this ? Extra 691 00:26:09,007 --> 00:26:11,062 uncertainty ? Representative , thank 692 00:26:11,062 --> 00:26:13,229 you for the question . The strike that 693 00:26:13,229 --> 00:26:15,451 was undertaken in Kabul on the 29th was 694 00:26:15,451 --> 00:26:17,507 a self defense strike . It was taken 695 00:26:17,507 --> 00:26:19,284 because we believe there was an 696 00:26:19,284 --> 00:26:21,229 imminent attack developing against 697 00:26:21,229 --> 00:26:23,173 against our forces at HK area . So 698 00:26:23,173 --> 00:26:25,340 that's very different than the type of 699 00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:27,451 strike we would undertake in uh in an 700 00:26:27,451 --> 00:26:30,240 over the horizon uh scenario . And the 701 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,351 principal differences would be this , 702 00:26:32,351 --> 00:26:34,129 we would not be under the acute 703 00:26:34,129 --> 00:26:36,351 pressure of time because we thought the 704 00:26:36,351 --> 00:26:36,180 attack was imminent . Because if we're 705 00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:38,124 striking a target in Afghanistan , 706 00:26:38,124 --> 00:26:40,124 there's actually no imminent see to 707 00:26:40,124 --> 00:26:42,291 that attack . You know , we're talking 708 00:26:42,291 --> 00:26:44,236 weeks and maybe months rather than 709 00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:46,180 hours or minutes . So you have the 710 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,458 opportunity to develop pattern of life . 711 00:26:48,458 --> 00:26:50,569 You have the opportunity to apply all 712 00:26:50,569 --> 00:26:52,680 the other disciplines of intelligence 713 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,736 that can help us whether that signal 714 00:26:54,736 --> 00:26:56,847 image human intelligence and we would 715 00:26:56,847 --> 00:26:58,847 work hard to to try to reconstitute 716 00:26:58,847 --> 00:27:00,958 that to a degree . And I'll talk more 717 00:27:00,958 --> 00:27:02,958 about that in a future , classified 718 00:27:02,958 --> 00:27:02,370 session with you . But it would be 719 00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:04,610 wrong to believe that the strike and in 720 00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:07,150 in Kabul which I've acknowledged went 721 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:09,730 badly wrong is the prototype that we 722 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:13,130 would employ for uh past or future over 723 00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:16,360 the horizon strikes . Well , um thank 724 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,416 you . I will look forward to working 725 00:27:18,416 --> 00:27:20,582 with you all to make sure that that we 726 00:27:20,582 --> 00:27:22,582 do that well . And I will note your 727 00:27:22,582 --> 00:27:24,804 comments on imminence next time we have 728 00:27:24,804 --> 00:27:27,027 questions about war powers with some of 729 00:27:27,027 --> 00:27:28,971 the strikes . But with that I will 730 00:27:28,971 --> 00:27:31,470 yield back . Thank you . And mr Jackson 731 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,700 is recognized for five minutes . Thank 732 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:35,478 you madam . Chair . Thank you . 733 00:27:35,478 --> 00:27:37,533 Secretary Austin . General Mackenzie 734 00:27:37,533 --> 00:27:39,756 generally for being here today . It's a 735 00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:39,400 very important hearing that we're 736 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,122 having here . I appreciate the 737 00:27:41,122 --> 00:27:43,122 committee's urgency and making this 738 00:27:43,122 --> 00:27:45,122 happen . While there was bipartisan 739 00:27:45,122 --> 00:27:47,456 support for withdrawal from Afghanistan , 740 00:27:47,456 --> 00:27:47,450 there were differences in opinion on 741 00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:49,561 how that should have been conducted . 742 00:27:49,561 --> 00:27:51,506 Something we should all be able to 743 00:27:51,506 --> 00:27:53,672 agree on is that the withdrawal should 744 00:27:53,672 --> 00:27:53,200 have been conditions based and there 745 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,144 should not have been any political 746 00:27:55,144 --> 00:27:57,311 motivation involved in this decision , 747 00:27:57,311 --> 00:27:59,644 which I don't think was the actual case . 748 00:27:59,644 --> 00:28:01,756 But gentlemen , I'd like to ask you , 749 00:28:01,756 --> 00:28:03,978 how often were you in contact with your 750 00:28:03,978 --> 00:28:03,390 chinese counterpart discussing our 751 00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:05,390 evacuation efforts in Afghanistan ? 752 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,800 Zero . And I agree with you conditions 753 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,820 based Generally on August 18 , you were 754 00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:15,876 quoted as saying the time frame of a 755 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:18,098 rapid collapse was widely estimated and 756 00:28:18,098 --> 00:28:20,153 ranged from weeks to months and even 757 00:28:20,153 --> 00:28:22,264 years following our departure . There 758 00:28:22,264 --> 00:28:24,376 was nothing that I or anyone else saw 759 00:28:24,376 --> 00:28:26,542 that indicated a collapse of this army 760 00:28:26,542 --> 00:28:29,500 and this government in 11 days Between 761 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,950 the 18th and 21 June . In just four 762 00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:34,820 days , 21 districts and nine provinces 763 00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:36,764 fell to the Taliban and the Afghan 764 00:28:36,764 --> 00:28:38,987 security forces quickly surrendered and 765 00:28:38,987 --> 00:28:41,260 abandoned their post . This was an 766 00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:43,260 obvious beginning to the end of the 767 00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:45,482 afghan army into the taliban takeover . 768 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,296 General Milley . What were you doing 769 00:28:48,296 --> 00:28:50,296 during this time frame ? Before you 770 00:28:50,296 --> 00:28:52,573 answer that question , let me tell you . 771 00:28:52,573 --> 00:28:54,684 You were two days just two days prior 772 00:28:54,684 --> 00:28:56,907 to when these provinces fell . You were 773 00:28:56,907 --> 00:28:58,962 here in our committee on june 23rd , 774 00:28:58,962 --> 00:29:01,129 You said before this committee and you 775 00:29:01,129 --> 00:29:03,296 listed some of your concerns that we , 776 00:29:03,296 --> 00:29:03,190 we talked in depth about one was 777 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,256 defending critical race there in the 778 00:29:05,256 --> 00:29:07,033 military telling us you want to 779 00:29:07,033 --> 00:29:09,200 understand white rage , telling us how 780 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,422 offended you were to be labeled as woke 781 00:29:11,422 --> 00:29:13,644 And worrying about what caused American 782 00:29:13,644 --> 00:29:15,644 civilians to enter the capital . On 783 00:29:15,644 --> 00:29:17,589 January six , I submit to you that 784 00:29:17,589 --> 00:29:19,422 perhaps we would not have had 13 785 00:29:19,422 --> 00:29:21,644 service members and hundreds of Afghans 786 00:29:21,644 --> 00:29:23,867 killed , 18 service members wounded and 787 00:29:23,867 --> 00:29:25,867 countless us citizens abandoned and 788 00:29:25,867 --> 00:29:28,089 left this Taliban hostages . If you had 789 00:29:28,089 --> 00:29:30,256 been more focused on your duty to this 790 00:29:30,256 --> 00:29:32,089 country instead of defending and 791 00:29:32,089 --> 00:29:34,256 pandering to the biden administrations 792 00:29:34,256 --> 00:29:36,422 woke social experiment with the United 793 00:29:36,422 --> 00:29:38,533 States military doing book interviews 794 00:29:38,533 --> 00:29:38,480 and colluding with chinese military 795 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,660 officials yesterday , Senator Cotton 796 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,300 ask you why you haven't resigned and 797 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:45,356 you said you are not going to resign 798 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:47,522 just because the president didn't take 799 00:29:47,522 --> 00:29:49,689 your advice . Well I submit to you sir 800 00:29:49,689 --> 00:29:51,856 that you should resign because of your 801 00:29:51,856 --> 00:29:54,078 dereliction of duty to this country and 802 00:29:54,078 --> 00:29:56,244 your your inability to do your job and 803 00:29:56,244 --> 00:29:58,300 protect this country . It has become 804 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:00,244 abundantly clear that the american 805 00:30:00,244 --> 00:30:02,411 people have completely lost confidence 806 00:30:02,411 --> 00:30:04,244 in your ability to do your job . 807 00:30:04,244 --> 00:30:06,411 General Milley , will you now resign ? 808 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,862 Uh huh . I serve at the pleasure of the 809 00:30:08,862 --> 00:30:11,510 President . Mr Jackson . Are you back 810 00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:15,170 my time . Mhm . Yeah 811 00:30:15,740 --> 00:30:17,907 thank you . And just for the record on 812 00:30:17,907 --> 00:30:19,962 that date and question what Chairman 813 00:30:19,962 --> 00:30:22,018 Millie was doing as he was appearing 814 00:30:22,018 --> 00:30:24,073 before this committee at our request 815 00:30:24,073 --> 00:30:26,370 and answering the questions that we 816 00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:29,150 asked him and I appreciate his 817 00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:31,317 willingness and the willingness of all 818 00:30:31,317 --> 00:30:33,372 the leadership to appear before us . 819 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,662 That is an incredibly important part of 820 00:30:35,662 --> 00:30:37,884 their job and I don't want to leave any 821 00:30:37,884 --> 00:30:39,829 of you with the impression that we 822 00:30:39,829 --> 00:30:41,718 don't want you to do it . Um Just 823 00:30:41,718 --> 00:30:43,718 because of questions like that , Mr 824 00:30:43,718 --> 00:30:45,940 Caylee is recognized for five minutes . 825 00:30:45,940 --> 00:30:47,940 Hello Mr Chairman the law secretary 826 00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:47,720 Austin . Chairman Millie gentle 827 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,780 Mackenzie all of your testimony and 828 00:30:49,780 --> 00:30:51,780 taking the time to be here today as 829 00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:53,780 someone who has also worn a uniform 830 00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:55,724 still wears the uniform . I'm very 831 00:30:55,724 --> 00:30:57,947 appreciative of your service And having 832 00:30:57,947 --> 00:30:59,891 first deployed to operation during 833 00:30:59,891 --> 00:31:02,113 freedom in 2005 . I am glad the U . S . 834 00:31:02,113 --> 00:31:04,169 Involvement in the war is over and I 835 00:31:04,169 --> 00:31:06,113 support the president's decision . 836 00:31:06,113 --> 00:31:07,947 However , I'm concerned that the 837 00:31:07,947 --> 00:31:10,113 accelerated withdrawal , the strategic 838 00:31:10,113 --> 00:31:12,280 failure and fall of Afghanistan to the 839 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,502 Taliban has damaged us credibility with 840 00:31:14,502 --> 00:31:16,669 our allies And partners . Was a former 841 00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:18,780 C-17 mission commander . I will never 842 00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:21,002 forget those images that I saw early in 843 00:31:21,002 --> 00:31:23,113 the morning of 15 August from Kabul . 844 00:31:23,113 --> 00:31:25,280 We're total chaos at H chi and afghans 845 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,391 falling out of the sky , desperate to 846 00:31:27,391 --> 00:31:29,224 flee the country . So I think my 847 00:31:29,224 --> 00:31:31,391 testimony uh my question is focused on 848 00:31:31,391 --> 00:31:33,502 Secretary Clinton's testimony and and 849 00:31:33,502 --> 00:31:35,613 it's really on the new operation that 850 00:31:35,613 --> 00:31:38,050 my colleagues rep crow and um um had 851 00:31:38,050 --> 00:31:40,161 referred to . And so Secretary Austin 852 00:31:40,161 --> 00:31:41,994 your testimony , you stated that 853 00:31:41,994 --> 00:31:44,161 military planners had crafted a number 854 00:31:44,161 --> 00:31:46,600 of evacuation scenarios in mid May . 855 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,378 You had ordered centcom to make 856 00:31:48,378 --> 00:31:50,550 preparations for a potential Neil and 857 00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:52,630 that on the 10th of august there was 858 00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:54,870 another Neil tabletop . When did the 859 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:57,350 State Department actually call for the 860 00:31:57,350 --> 00:32:00,940 Neil I believe was on the 861 00:32:00,940 --> 00:32:04,820 14th Congressman Okay of August on 862 00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:07,042 14 August , the State Department called 863 00:32:07,042 --> 00:32:09,098 for the Neil . So you stated in your 864 00:32:09,098 --> 00:32:12,150 testimony that the Neil remains among 865 00:32:12,150 --> 00:32:13,817 the most challenging military 866 00:32:13,817 --> 00:32:15,539 operations even in the best of 867 00:32:15,539 --> 00:32:17,483 circumstances and circumstances in 868 00:32:17,483 --> 00:32:19,539 august or anything but ideal extreme 869 00:32:19,539 --> 00:32:21,372 heat , a landlocked country , no 870 00:32:21,372 --> 00:32:23,680 government , highly dynamic situation 871 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,736 on the ground and an active credible 872 00:32:25,736 --> 00:32:28,170 and lethal terrorist threat and that 873 00:32:28,540 --> 00:32:30,540 also in your testimony that you had 874 00:32:30,540 --> 00:32:32,651 offered input to the State Department 875 00:32:32,651 --> 00:32:34,873 that although mindful of their concerns 876 00:32:34,873 --> 00:32:36,873 that moving too soon would actually 877 00:32:36,873 --> 00:32:38,873 cause a very collapse of the Afghan 878 00:32:38,873 --> 00:32:41,151 government that we all wanted to avoid , 879 00:32:41,151 --> 00:32:43,318 but that moving too late would put our 880 00:32:43,318 --> 00:32:45,380 people and our operations at greater 881 00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:48,210 risk . And so what I'm trying to figure 882 00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:51,790 out is , you know , despite The 883 00:32:51,790 --> 00:32:54,320 president's decision to order withdrawn 884 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,630 April 14 and that the troop presence 885 00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:58,770 will go to zero on May 1 to withdraw 886 00:32:58,780 --> 00:33:02,460 began . Um you know , by May and June 887 00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:04,516 of 2021 , the Taliban had captured a 888 00:33:04,516 --> 00:33:06,738 quarter of the country . Representative 889 00:33:06,738 --> 00:33:08,904 crow identified on June 11 , there was 890 00:33:08,904 --> 00:33:11,127 a Neil tabletop that was done on August 891 00:33:11,127 --> 00:33:13,182 six . The Taliban captured the first 892 00:33:13,182 --> 00:33:14,960 capital on August 10 . We did a 893 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,182 tabletop . Why were we doing a tabletop 894 00:33:17,182 --> 00:33:19,071 on August 10 when the Taliban was 895 00:33:19,071 --> 00:33:21,460 rapidly advancing to Kabul On august 14 , 896 00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:23,900 Jalalabad and Mazar I Sharif fell . And 897 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:26,730 by august 15th the Taliban had entered 898 00:33:26,730 --> 00:33:28,841 Kabul . Well , that's what I'm trying 899 00:33:28,841 --> 00:33:31,063 to figure out . Secretary Austin is why 900 00:33:31,063 --> 00:33:33,286 did we wait ? I know we had to wait for 901 00:33:33,286 --> 00:33:35,341 the State Department to call for the 902 00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:37,452 Neil , but why did we wait so long to 903 00:33:37,452 --> 00:33:39,286 do that ? Even though we had pre 904 00:33:39,286 --> 00:33:41,008 positioned forces , as you had 905 00:33:41,008 --> 00:33:43,119 mentioned in Afghanistan , we had the 906 00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:45,470 24th meu there 82nd airborne was coming 907 00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:47,720 in . But the airfield was still in 908 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 total chaos on August 15 . Yeah , 909 00:33:51,690 --> 00:33:54,970 so I think what changed uh the equation 910 00:33:54,970 --> 00:33:56,940 here , we we anticipated that just 911 00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:59,110 based upon the disposition of forces 912 00:33:59,110 --> 00:34:01,221 that were kind of centered around the 913 00:34:01,221 --> 00:34:03,660 population center , that the Afghans 914 00:34:03,660 --> 00:34:07,070 would in fact put up uh you know , more 915 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,780 significant resistance . And so we 916 00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:12,002 anticipated that that fighting would be 917 00:34:12,002 --> 00:34:14,370 a bit more intense as they approached 918 00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:16,970 Ghazni , we didn't see the fight that 919 00:34:16,970 --> 00:34:19,137 we thought we'd see . And that was the 920 00:34:19,137 --> 00:34:22,110 trigger for us to to begin to move some 921 00:34:22,110 --> 00:34:25,090 things very quickly . And then uh even 922 00:34:25,090 --> 00:34:27,560 as they moved north of Ghazni , we 923 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,270 expected that as they approached Kabul , 924 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,620 that again , those forces that were 925 00:34:32,620 --> 00:34:36,160 there would fight uh more 926 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,820 um and we had there was a government in 927 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:42,820 place still at the time , but with the 928 00:34:42,830 --> 00:34:45,870 government collapsing uh and leaving . 929 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,310 And uh that precipitated the uh 930 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,200 evaporation of the security forces and 931 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,311 that really panicked the people . And 932 00:34:55,311 --> 00:34:57,533 so what you saw in that first day was a 933 00:34:57,533 --> 00:35:00,420 result of that panic . Should the neo 934 00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:02,476 operation have commenced sooner than 935 00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:03,660 april 14th ? 936 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,780 I certainly think it could have . Yeah , 937 00:35:08,790 --> 00:35:12,170 again , we had the the elements to 938 00:35:12,170 --> 00:35:15,390 begin to uh begin to operate a bit 939 00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:17,390 sooner , but that's that's that's a 940 00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:19,990 State Department call and and uh we 941 00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:22,212 provide our input and it's based upon a 942 00:35:22,212 --> 00:35:24,379 lot of things and this is not throwing 943 00:35:24,379 --> 00:35:26,434 my State Department colleagues under 944 00:35:26,434 --> 00:35:28,323 the bus . It's a very dynamic and 945 00:35:28,323 --> 00:35:30,101 challenging situation ? General 946 00:35:30,101 --> 00:35:32,212 Mackenzie , you stated that primarily 947 00:35:32,212 --> 00:35:32,030 are Neo planning included ambassadors 948 00:35:32,030 --> 00:35:34,630 and embassy personnel . When did the 949 00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:36,741 Neo planning begin to include Afghans 950 00:35:36,741 --> 00:35:39,210 and sieves early in the , early in the 951 00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:41,432 late spring , early in the summer . All 952 00:35:41,432 --> 00:35:43,599 right , thank you for your questions . 953 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:45,821 Thank you . Mr franklin is recognized . 954 00:35:45,821 --> 00:35:47,821 Thank you Mr Chairman and thank you 955 00:35:47,821 --> 00:35:49,599 gentlemen for your patience and 956 00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:51,599 persistence these last two days . I 957 00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:53,821 understand there's a lot of hours to be 958 00:35:53,821 --> 00:35:53,360 sitting before all of us and when 959 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,471 you're tailing charlie , like I am in 960 00:35:55,471 --> 00:35:57,304 this batting order , most of the 961 00:35:57,304 --> 00:35:59,249 ground's been broken . I do have a 962 00:35:59,249 --> 00:36:01,520 couple of things . But first I've been 963 00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:04,530 I was kind of puzzled Here in General 964 00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:06,970 Mackenzie's characterization of our 965 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:09,130 departure now out of Afghanistan as 966 00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:11,408 being something other than a surrender . 967 00:36:11,408 --> 00:36:13,574 Um you know , it doesn't feel that way 968 00:36:13,574 --> 00:36:15,741 to me . It certainly doesn't feel that 969 00:36:15,741 --> 00:36:17,797 way to the American public . And you 970 00:36:17,797 --> 00:36:19,797 know , 20 years ago Exactly , I was 971 00:36:19,797 --> 00:36:21,852 sitting in Bahrain were planning the 972 00:36:21,852 --> 00:36:24,019 initial strikes into Afghanistan . And 973 00:36:24,019 --> 00:36:26,130 at that time our marching orders were 974 00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:28,650 to defeat al Qaeda and to ensure that 975 00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:30,771 Afghanistan would no longer be a safe 976 00:36:30,771 --> 00:36:32,771 haven for terrorists . And now fast 977 00:36:32,771 --> 00:36:34,771 forward 20 years , Those conditions 978 00:36:34,771 --> 00:36:36,827 while uh you know , General Miller , 979 00:36:36,827 --> 00:36:39,049 you said within maybe 6-36 months , the 980 00:36:39,049 --> 00:36:41,216 country will be ripe again potentially 981 00:36:41,216 --> 00:36:43,438 to be launching strikes like that , our 982 00:36:43,438 --> 00:36:45,271 target targeting against us . It 983 00:36:45,271 --> 00:36:47,493 doesn't feel like um like it's anything 984 00:36:47,493 --> 00:36:49,660 other than the surrender . But General 985 00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:51,630 Mackenzie , you had mentioned that 986 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,807 holding bagram was untenable under the 987 00:36:53,807 --> 00:36:56,040 circumstances and that the bagram 988 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,262 option went away when you were given an 989 00:36:58,262 --> 00:37:00,373 end strength of 650 , understand that 990 00:37:00,373 --> 00:37:03,490 um , I assume that you you mean that it 991 00:37:03,490 --> 00:37:05,434 was untenable because of the troop 992 00:37:05,434 --> 00:37:07,630 limitation , but if you had not been 993 00:37:07,630 --> 00:37:09,610 limited , would your professional 994 00:37:09,610 --> 00:37:11,590 military advice been to relinquish 995 00:37:11,590 --> 00:37:15,500 bagram ? So at a troop level of 2500 , 996 00:37:15,550 --> 00:37:17,494 we would have held bagram and that 997 00:37:17,494 --> 00:37:19,494 would have been my recommendation . 998 00:37:19,494 --> 00:37:23,230 That was my position . Okay . Um so you 999 00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:25,286 would also mention that there was no 1000 00:37:25,286 --> 00:37:27,452 tactical reason to hold bagram . Would 1001 00:37:27,452 --> 00:37:29,452 you elaborate ? I assume that would 1002 00:37:29,452 --> 00:37:31,619 mean I don't want to put words in your 1003 00:37:31,619 --> 00:37:33,841 mouth , but strategically would you see 1004 00:37:33,841 --> 00:37:33,400 a value to us ? Still , you know , when 1005 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,567 I said there was no tactical reason to 1006 00:37:35,567 --> 00:37:37,400 hold bagram , I was specifically 1007 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,456 talking about the neo operation . So 1008 00:37:39,456 --> 00:37:41,567 once we went down to 6 50 and then we 1009 00:37:41,567 --> 00:37:43,733 were given the orders to do to conduct 1010 00:37:43,733 --> 00:37:45,456 Anita uh , for the reasons the 1011 00:37:45,456 --> 00:37:47,622 secretary and the chairman has already 1012 00:37:47,622 --> 00:37:49,789 outlined the center of gravity of that 1013 00:37:49,789 --> 00:37:49,090 was actually h chi it's where the 1014 00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:51,257 people are . You got the mog operating 1015 00:37:51,257 --> 00:37:53,479 capacity there to move airplanes in and 1016 00:37:53,479 --> 00:37:55,590 out . I will , I will tell you this , 1017 00:37:55,590 --> 00:37:57,646 the representative , we had a branch 1018 00:37:57,646 --> 00:37:59,812 plan to seize bagram airfield . Should 1019 00:37:59,812 --> 00:38:02,140 h chi have become untenable , but that 1020 00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:04,196 would have required , as has already 1021 00:38:04,196 --> 00:38:06,307 been noted , a significant investment 1022 00:38:06,307 --> 00:38:08,307 in combat power in bagram and hk it 1023 00:38:08,307 --> 00:38:10,473 never became untenable . So we did not 1024 00:38:10,473 --> 00:38:12,584 have to consider that plan , Although 1025 00:38:12,584 --> 00:38:14,584 we had a highly detailed plan to be 1026 00:38:14,584 --> 00:38:16,473 able to do it , it simply was not 1027 00:38:16,473 --> 00:38:18,362 necessary because we were able to 1028 00:38:18,362 --> 00:38:20,584 maintain the throughput at h kaya . And 1029 00:38:20,584 --> 00:38:22,640 again , had we gone into bagram were 1030 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,973 introduced significant additional U . S . 1031 00:38:24,973 --> 00:38:26,918 Combat forces into the country and 1032 00:38:26,918 --> 00:38:26,760 probably would have provoked another 1033 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,982 conflict with the taliban , which would 1034 00:38:28,982 --> 00:38:31,149 have been a political decision , not a 1035 00:38:31,149 --> 00:38:32,982 military decision . I understand 1036 00:38:32,982 --> 00:38:35,260 political decision . Um , But you know , 1037 00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:36,927 here it is since 1898 , we've 1038 00:38:36,927 --> 00:38:38,982 maintained Guantanamo Bay . So we do 1039 00:38:38,982 --> 00:38:41,149 have a history of of keeping territory 1040 00:38:41,149 --> 00:38:43,038 even in lands where we don't have 1041 00:38:43,038 --> 00:38:45,260 friendly forces there at our side . But 1042 00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:47,427 I do know seeing already the challenge 1043 00:38:47,427 --> 00:38:49,538 with over the horizon , uh conducting 1044 00:38:49,538 --> 00:38:51,704 our strikes over the horizon , it sure 1045 00:38:51,704 --> 00:38:53,982 would be nice to have that field . Now , 1046 00:38:53,982 --> 00:38:56,149 Secretary Austin , uh , I just want to 1047 00:38:56,149 --> 00:38:58,093 wholeheartedly agree with Chairman 1048 00:38:58,093 --> 00:39:00,149 Smith's comment earlier that we make 1049 00:39:00,149 --> 00:39:02,371 the decisions in the world that we live 1050 00:39:02,371 --> 00:39:04,482 in and we don't have the luxury of of 1051 00:39:04,482 --> 00:39:04,330 having the magic one . I get that . And 1052 00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:07,070 that's the world you all face every day . 1053 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,430 Um you told us that you would like to 1054 00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:11,319 have seen this conflict in with a 1055 00:39:11,319 --> 00:39:13,597 negotiated settlement . General Miller , 1056 00:39:13,597 --> 00:39:15,763 you did as well . Uh No , there's been 1057 00:39:15,763 --> 00:39:17,874 a lot of talk about whether President 1058 00:39:17,874 --> 00:39:20,097 trump should have been negotiating with 1059 00:39:20,097 --> 00:39:22,319 the taliban or not , that's a different 1060 00:39:22,319 --> 00:39:24,541 conversation for another day . But um , 1061 00:39:24,541 --> 00:39:27,210 those um those terms that were agreed 1062 00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:29,377 to , we're not really complied with by 1063 00:39:29,377 --> 00:39:31,710 the taliban . And here it is , you know , 1064 00:39:31,710 --> 00:39:33,654 we we know that gentlemen and your 1065 00:39:33,654 --> 00:39:33,540 testimony , seven of the eight 1066 00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:35,429 conditions that were given to the 1067 00:39:35,429 --> 00:39:37,910 taliban were broken uh in light of that 1068 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,590 failure . Uh Secretary Austin , Do you , 1069 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,544 do you think it was wise for us to 1070 00:39:42,544 --> 00:39:44,656 continue with the timeline ? Or do we 1071 00:39:44,656 --> 00:39:46,767 feel compelled ? Because I constantly 1072 00:39:46,767 --> 00:39:48,822 hear the administration pushing back 1073 00:39:48,822 --> 00:39:50,822 saying we had no choice . Our hands 1074 00:39:50,822 --> 00:39:52,322 were tied , uh , the trump 1075 00:39:52,322 --> 00:39:54,433 administration tied our hands to this 1076 00:39:54,433 --> 00:39:56,322 timeline , but the taliban didn't 1077 00:39:56,322 --> 00:39:58,544 comply with their end of the deal . And 1078 00:39:58,544 --> 00:40:00,378 now we're kind of stuck in a bad 1079 00:40:00,378 --> 00:40:02,810 situation . Um Do you feel that we we 1080 00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:04,920 should have pushed a timeline not 1081 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,087 necessarily to stay in Afghanistan ? I 1082 00:40:07,087 --> 00:40:09,142 get it . I think that there's a time 1083 00:40:09,142 --> 00:40:11,142 for us to start negotiating an exit 1084 00:40:11,142 --> 00:40:13,020 there , but in in light of how 1085 00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:16,310 disastrous the hasty withdrawal uh turn 1086 00:40:16,310 --> 00:40:18,310 out to be , we could have used more 1087 00:40:18,310 --> 00:40:20,990 time to get those folks out . Well , 1088 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,920 quite frankly , because of the fact 1089 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,460 that , you know , For a 1090 00:40:27,460 --> 00:40:29,810 year , we weren't striking the Taliban . 1091 00:40:29,820 --> 00:40:32,670 They were increasing in combat power . 1092 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,710 We released 5000 prisoners , uh which 1093 00:40:35,710 --> 00:40:39,000 kind of re regenerated combat power for 1094 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,730 them . They were they were able to make 1095 00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:46,190 advances against the Afghan security 1096 00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:48,380 forces because , you know , we weren't 1097 00:40:48,380 --> 00:40:51,110 doing things to fully support . Uh , 1098 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,731 but again , I apologize that 1099 00:40:52,731 --> 00:40:54,898 gentleman's time has expired That will 1100 00:40:54,898 --> 00:40:56,676 have to suffice . Mr Panetta is 1101 00:40:56,676 --> 00:40:59,060 recognized . Thank you . I appreciate 1102 00:40:59,060 --> 00:41:02,290 this hearing . Uh , Mr Chair and good 1103 00:41:02,290 --> 00:41:04,290 afternoon and thank you gentlemen , 1104 00:41:04,290 --> 00:41:06,346 thank you for being here . Thank you 1105 00:41:06,346 --> 00:41:06,280 for your service , not just an 1106 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,113 operation enduring freedom , but 1107 00:41:08,113 --> 00:41:10,224 throughout your career service to our 1108 00:41:10,224 --> 00:41:12,550 great nation . As an american . As a 1109 00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:14,717 veteran of O . E . F . I want to thank 1110 00:41:14,717 --> 00:41:16,550 you for continuing to remind the 1111 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:18,510 american public not to reduce the 1112 00:41:18,510 --> 00:41:21,310 service of 800,000 men and women who 1113 00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:23,477 served in Afghanistan down to two week 1114 00:41:23,477 --> 00:41:25,643 chaotic withdrawal . Not to reduce the 1115 00:41:25,643 --> 00:41:29,290 sacrifice of the 2461 men and 1116 00:41:29,290 --> 00:41:32,300 women down to a single photo of a C 17 1117 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:36,050 on the kabul tarmac . But as you know , 1118 00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:38,171 and as american as a veteran and as a 1119 00:41:38,171 --> 00:41:40,282 representative , it is my duty to ask 1120 00:41:40,282 --> 00:41:42,338 questions . And let me tell you , my 1121 00:41:42,338 --> 00:41:44,171 constituents are asking a lot of 1122 00:41:44,171 --> 00:41:46,171 questions . And I think the problem 1123 00:41:46,171 --> 00:41:48,282 with the withdrawal is that it's left 1124 00:41:48,282 --> 00:41:50,500 more questions than answers The 1125 00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:52,611 withdrawal . With the withdrawal , we 1126 00:41:52,611 --> 00:41:54,722 ended our involvement with the war in 1127 00:41:54,722 --> 00:41:56,944 Afghanistan . But we still have the war 1128 00:41:56,944 --> 00:41:59,000 on terror . We withdrew our troops . 1129 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,056 But will we have to go in ? Yes , we 1130 00:42:01,056 --> 00:42:03,056 evacuated 122,000 and you should be 1131 00:42:03,056 --> 00:42:05,000 proud of that . But what about the 1132 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,167 others who remain ? And on that note , 1133 00:42:07,167 --> 00:42:09,111 I just want you to think about the 1134 00:42:09,111 --> 00:42:11,056 definition of success shouldn't be 1135 00:42:11,056 --> 00:42:13,222 based on how many people you got out , 1136 00:42:13,222 --> 00:42:15,278 but how many people we left behind . 1137 00:42:15,278 --> 00:42:17,278 And so what I'm hearing is a lot of 1138 00:42:17,278 --> 00:42:19,278 frustration for my constituents who 1139 00:42:19,278 --> 00:42:19,200 have family members there in 1140 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,500 Afghanistan who literally have nobody 1141 00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:23,750 to turn to to get out when it comes to 1142 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,130 on the ground . They're devastated by 1143 00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:28,186 the deaths of the 12 marines and the 1144 00:42:28,186 --> 00:42:30,130 one sailor . And yes , I got to be 1145 00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:32,130 frank . There are little humiliated 1146 00:42:32,130 --> 00:42:34,420 seeing the taliban drive around , screw 1147 00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:36,870 around with american equipment and this 1148 00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:39,070 is hyperbole . But I do think it sums 1149 00:42:39,070 --> 00:42:41,070 it up pretty good that I heard this 1150 00:42:41,070 --> 00:42:43,430 quote about this frustration and it 1151 00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:45,486 says something is not right when the 1152 00:42:45,486 --> 00:42:47,152 taliban can get american made 1153 00:42:47,152 --> 00:42:49,510 ammunition easier than americans can 1154 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,089 And four I do believe that we are 1155 00:42:52,089 --> 00:42:54,089 dumbfounded , dumbfounded that this 1156 00:42:54,089 --> 00:42:56,033 government , the Afghan government 1157 00:42:56,033 --> 00:42:58,200 absolutely disappeared and hundreds of 1158 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,089 thousands of well equipped Afghan 1159 00:43:00,089 --> 00:43:02,210 troops shed their uniforms , dropped 1160 00:43:02,210 --> 00:43:04,980 their weapons and ran . I do believe 1161 00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:06,647 though that the thunder lying 1162 00:43:06,647 --> 00:43:09,650 foundation for the reason for why this 1163 00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:11,539 government crumbled and why those 1164 00:43:11,539 --> 00:43:13,420 troops fled is corruption . We 1165 00:43:13,420 --> 00:43:15,680 basically supported a potemkin village 1166 00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:18,100 and when we left it fell And it 1167 00:43:18,110 --> 00:43:20,220 basically set up a system as we saw 1168 00:43:20,220 --> 00:43:22,164 throughout the 20 years there from 1169 00:43:22,164 --> 00:43:24,498 birth certificates to death certificate . 1170 00:43:24,498 --> 00:43:26,498 It was all about bribes and what we 1171 00:43:26,498 --> 00:43:28,553 were left with when we were about to 1172 00:43:28,553 --> 00:43:30,553 leave was a state that had grown so 1173 00:43:30,553 --> 00:43:32,890 corrupt that governors were cutting 1174 00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:35,057 deals with jihadists to switch sides . 1175 00:43:35,057 --> 00:43:37,279 Inflation was rampant because we're the 1176 00:43:37,279 --> 00:43:39,550 money we handed out and then left ghost 1177 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,080 soldiers basically absentees listed on 1178 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,550 the payroll so commanders could steal 1179 00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:46,960 the salaries very similar to what 1180 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,182 happened in Vietnam . And you're seeing 1181 00:43:49,182 --> 00:43:51,404 a lot of similarities presented to that 1182 00:43:51,404 --> 00:43:53,516 case . And there are a lot of studies 1183 00:43:53,516 --> 00:43:55,627 obviously after Vietnam where it said 1184 00:43:55,627 --> 00:43:57,738 corruption was a fundamental ill that 1185 00:43:57,738 --> 00:43:59,516 was largely responsible for the 1186 00:43:59,516 --> 00:44:02,100 ultimate collapse . So my question to 1187 00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:05,630 you is , do you believe that corruption 1188 00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:07,463 was the fundamental ill that was 1189 00:44:07,463 --> 00:44:09,686 largely responsible for the collapse of 1190 00:44:09,686 --> 00:44:12,019 the Afghan government ? If so elaborate , 1191 00:44:12,019 --> 00:44:14,074 if not , what would you consider the 1192 00:44:14,074 --> 00:44:16,480 fundamental ill for the quick collapse 1193 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,910 of that government ? Uh thank you . 1194 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,330 I certainly agree that corruption 1195 00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:26,570 played a major role in the collapse of 1196 00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:28,848 the government and the security forces . 1197 00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:32,220 I also believe that weak leadership 1198 00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:35,840 added to that the fact that President 1199 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,590 Ghani frequently without any apparent 1200 00:44:38,590 --> 00:44:40,730 reason , changed out his commanders , 1201 00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:44,300 which which degraded the confidence of 1202 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:47,860 the troops and their leadership . Um I 1203 00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:49,814 uh , so I think there , and then I 1204 00:44:49,814 --> 00:44:51,870 believe also that the Doha agreement 1205 00:44:52,190 --> 00:44:55,660 had a significant negative effect on 1206 00:44:55,660 --> 00:44:58,410 the morale of the , of the , of the 1207 00:44:58,410 --> 00:45:00,920 military . And so I think there's a , 1208 00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:03,400 there's a , you know , a combination of 1209 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,511 a number of things that came together 1210 00:45:05,511 --> 00:45:07,289 to create these effects . But I 1211 00:45:07,289 --> 00:45:09,289 certainly agree that corruption was 1212 00:45:09,289 --> 00:45:12,310 central to this issue general . 1213 00:45:13,290 --> 00:45:15,401 Absolutely . And I'd even take it one 1214 00:45:15,401 --> 00:45:17,512 level higher . I think it's about the 1215 00:45:17,512 --> 00:45:19,512 legitimacy of the government in the 1216 00:45:19,512 --> 00:45:21,734 eyes of the people , in the eyes of its 1217 00:45:21,734 --> 00:45:23,901 military . And I think that corruption 1218 00:45:23,901 --> 00:45:26,012 is one of the contributing factors to 1219 00:45:26,012 --> 00:45:28,234 delegitimize . It's my observation that 1220 00:45:28,234 --> 00:45:30,420 again , have to gather all the facts . 1221 00:45:30,420 --> 00:45:33,390 But I think at the village level , the 1222 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,622 government of Afghanistan was looked at 1223 00:45:35,622 --> 00:45:37,733 as parasitic as opposed to supportive 1224 00:45:37,733 --> 00:45:39,956 with exception , possibly of the Afghan 1225 00:45:39,956 --> 00:45:42,122 army itself . But the government , the 1226 00:45:42,122 --> 00:45:44,233 local officials , the police forces , 1227 00:45:44,233 --> 00:45:46,400 etcetera , were clearly delegitimizing 1228 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,622 the eyes of the people that I think was 1229 00:45:48,622 --> 00:45:50,567 a major contributing factor to the 1230 00:45:50,567 --> 00:45:52,678 dissolution of the government and the 1231 00:45:52,678 --> 00:45:51,930 army and the collapse of the whole 1232 00:45:51,930 --> 00:45:54,097 thing in a very , very rapid period of 1233 00:45:54,097 --> 00:45:56,319 time . Thank you again , you're back my 1234 00:45:56,319 --> 00:45:58,486 time . Thank you . Mr Chairman . Thank 1235 00:45:58,486 --> 00:45:58,010 you . Okay , we've got quickly and Mr . 1236 00:45:58,010 --> 00:46:00,232 Fallon and Mr horse for and then we are 1237 00:46:00,232 --> 00:46:02,399 going to be done . Mr Fallon . You are 1238 00:46:02,399 --> 00:46:06,100 recognized ? Yes . During this hearing , 1239 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,720 there were the virtue of courage was 1240 00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:12,130 used to describe the current president 1241 00:46:12,140 --> 00:46:14,730 and I think that's misplaced . I think 1242 00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:16,600 the virtue of courage should be 1243 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,290 attributed to the 2461 Troops that we 1244 00:46:20,290 --> 00:46:23,820 lost that gave everything the 20,698 1245 00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:26,360 that were maimed and injured and 1246 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,180 wounded and the 800,000 that served . 1247 00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:31,246 I'm a little perplexed and thank you 1248 00:46:31,246 --> 00:46:33,190 for being here . I wanted to clear 1249 00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:35,190 something up during the testimony . 1250 00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:37,412 General Mackenzie . You were asked when 1251 00:46:37,412 --> 00:46:39,301 you knew that the drone strike on 1252 00:46:39,301 --> 00:46:41,523 August 29 had gone tragically wrong and 1253 00:46:41,523 --> 00:46:43,579 correct me just yes or no . You said 1254 00:46:43,579 --> 00:46:43,520 about five or six hours later , you'd 1255 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,742 learned that . Is that correct ? That's 1256 00:46:45,742 --> 00:46:47,687 well , that's when we learned that 1257 00:46:47,687 --> 00:46:49,909 civilians have been killed . So it went 1258 00:46:49,909 --> 00:46:52,187 wrong . No , I did not say that . Okay . 1259 00:46:52,187 --> 00:46:54,131 I said that's when we learned that 1260 00:46:54,131 --> 00:46:56,298 civilians have been killed . Would you 1261 00:46:56,298 --> 00:46:58,464 have considered that five or six hours 1262 00:46:58,464 --> 00:47:00,687 later ? Righteous strike ? We took that 1263 00:47:00,687 --> 00:47:02,860 strike based on the belief that the 1264 00:47:02,860 --> 00:47:04,804 vehicle was going to be used in an 1265 00:47:04,804 --> 00:47:06,804 attack against us . So we knew that 1266 00:47:06,804 --> 00:47:08,804 people that should have been killed 1267 00:47:08,804 --> 00:47:10,916 were killed five or six hours after . 1268 00:47:10,916 --> 00:47:13,082 We knew that probably people that were 1269 00:47:13,082 --> 00:47:15,193 not involved in attacks . Thank you . 1270 00:47:15,193 --> 00:47:17,360 Take a little longer to learn the rest 1271 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,620 of the story . Great Secretary , um 1272 00:47:19,630 --> 00:47:21,630 Austin , Same . You'd learned about 1273 00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:23,852 five or six hours after the people that 1274 00:47:23,852 --> 00:47:25,963 should have been killed were killed . 1275 00:47:25,963 --> 00:47:27,630 Well , I learned from General 1276 00:47:27,630 --> 00:47:29,630 McKenzie's reporting that there was 1277 00:47:29,630 --> 00:47:31,686 collateral damage . I think whenever 1278 00:47:31,686 --> 00:47:33,852 that happens , we investigate and then 1279 00:47:33,852 --> 00:47:35,963 General Milley on september 1st three 1280 00:47:35,963 --> 00:47:37,908 days later , you described it as a 1281 00:47:37,908 --> 00:47:40,130 righteous strike . People that were not 1282 00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:39,550 supposed to be killed were killed . And 1283 00:47:39,550 --> 00:47:41,828 you described it as a righteous strike . 1284 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,191 Yeah , if you go back and look at the 1285 00:47:44,191 --> 00:47:45,969 full quote , what I said was we 1286 00:47:45,969 --> 00:47:48,080 followed the procedures . I had every 1287 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,913 reason to believe that , that we 1288 00:47:49,913 --> 00:47:52,024 followed our procedures at that point 1289 00:47:52,024 --> 00:47:53,913 in time , we knew that there were 1290 00:47:53,913 --> 00:47:53,890 civilians killed . We knew there were 1291 00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:55,960 non combatants and there was uh 1292 00:47:55,970 --> 00:47:58,137 collateral . Yes , he said were others 1293 00:47:58,137 --> 00:48:00,470 killed . Yes . Where they we don't know . 1294 00:48:00,470 --> 00:48:02,692 We're trying to sort through all that . 1295 00:48:02,692 --> 00:48:02,620 That's right . I said that's right . 1296 00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:04,741 Because I believed killed people , we 1297 00:48:04,741 --> 00:48:07,960 should I believe that the target we're 1298 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,904 aiming answer , and I believe that 1299 00:48:09,904 --> 00:48:12,127 we're aiming at was okay . I have three 1300 00:48:12,127 --> 00:48:14,127 more minutes . Thank you . Uh Now , 1301 00:48:14,127 --> 00:48:16,016 generally , you served under both 1302 00:48:16,016 --> 00:48:18,238 President trump and biden . Uh , okay . 1303 00:48:18,238 --> 00:48:20,460 Um I've spoken with Secretary of former 1304 00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:22,627 Secretary of State Pompeo , had a very 1305 00:48:22,627 --> 00:48:24,849 extensive conversation with uh director 1306 00:48:24,849 --> 00:48:26,404 of former National Director 1307 00:48:26,404 --> 00:48:28,404 Intelligence , john Ratcliffe . And 1308 00:48:28,404 --> 00:48:30,293 what was the general sentiment of 1309 00:48:30,293 --> 00:48:32,516 senior advisers ? If conditions weren't 1310 00:48:32,516 --> 00:48:31,910 met ? What would happen in Afghanistan ? 1311 00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:35,000 How long that the Afghan army and 1312 00:48:35,070 --> 00:48:37,770 government would last ? You recall that 1313 00:48:37,780 --> 00:48:39,947 I would imagine you were sitting in on 1314 00:48:39,947 --> 00:48:41,836 those meetings ? I'm not sure . I 1315 00:48:41,836 --> 00:48:41,750 understand the question . If conditions 1316 00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:43,806 are not conditions aren't met and we 1317 00:48:43,806 --> 00:48:45,694 withdraw , How long is the Afghan 1318 00:48:45,694 --> 00:48:47,810 government gonna last back then ? I'm 1319 00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:49,754 not going to speak for them . I'll 1320 00:48:49,754 --> 00:48:51,921 speak for myself . Please do because I 1321 00:48:51,921 --> 00:48:54,740 I'm on record . Um having said that if 1322 00:48:54,740 --> 00:48:57,080 we go to zero , that there's a high 1323 00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,620 probability of the government and the 1324 00:48:59,620 --> 00:49:03,310 Afghan army collapsing in terms of time , 1325 00:49:04,270 --> 00:49:06,570 I put I put that between one and three 1326 00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:08,626 years at the time I wrote this stuff 1327 00:49:08,626 --> 00:49:10,959 back in . Okay , you're going to follow . 1328 00:49:10,959 --> 00:49:13,126 So this is that's interesting that you 1329 00:49:13,126 --> 00:49:15,292 say that because when I talked to both 1330 00:49:15,292 --> 00:49:17,348 uh Mr Pompeo and Mr Ratcliffe , they 1331 00:49:17,348 --> 00:49:20,190 told me that it was there was unanimity . 1332 00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:22,412 Even President trump said if conditions 1333 00:49:22,412 --> 00:49:25,680 are not mad that the Afghan army and 1334 00:49:25,690 --> 00:49:27,857 government would collapse within weeks 1335 00:49:27,857 --> 00:49:29,801 and the longest they had , maybe a 1336 00:49:29,801 --> 00:49:32,023 month or two . So , what they gave me ? 1337 00:49:32,023 --> 00:49:33,912 Because I was just surprised that 1338 00:49:33,912 --> 00:49:33,840 because Secretary Austin said in his 1339 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,896 remarks today that the fact that the 1340 00:49:35,896 --> 00:49:38,130 Afghan Army , uh we and our partners 1341 00:49:38,130 --> 00:49:40,074 trained simply melted away in many 1342 00:49:40,074 --> 00:49:42,297 cases was a shock . John Radcliffe told 1343 00:49:42,297 --> 00:49:46,160 me he told his his successor that they 1344 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,438 were going to collapse instantaneously . 1345 00:49:48,438 --> 00:49:50,604 If those conditions weren't met , they 1346 00:49:50,604 --> 00:49:52,604 were going to evaporate . And now I 1347 00:49:52,604 --> 00:49:54,771 don't know what was a surprise . But I 1348 00:49:54,771 --> 00:49:54,110 think with General Milley , without the 1349 00:49:54,110 --> 00:49:57,250 respect what I think it is , it was not 1350 00:49:57,250 --> 00:49:59,472 a failure of intelligence . It seems to 1351 00:49:59,472 --> 00:50:01,361 me I didn't know this stuff . I'm 1352 00:50:01,361 --> 00:50:03,417 asking . I went in the room you were 1353 00:50:03,417 --> 00:50:05,361 that it was a failure to heed that 1354 00:50:05,361 --> 00:50:07,528 intelligence and and act accordingly . 1355 00:50:07,528 --> 00:50:09,750 I can show you the intelligence reports 1356 00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:11,861 that were produced on that directly . 1357 00:50:11,861 --> 00:50:14,083 And I appreciate that 50 seconds left . 1358 00:50:14,083 --> 00:50:16,194 So pure thank you . All right . So we 1359 00:50:16,194 --> 00:50:18,417 got 5000 bad guys in bagram and jail at 1360 00:50:18,417 --> 00:50:20,528 bagram . Right , am I right ? General 1361 00:50:20,528 --> 00:50:23,320 kinsey and then we we go down to 6 50 . 1362 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,431 We can't hold it . So we split around 1363 00:50:25,431 --> 00:50:29,240 july 1st I think we left 12 , 12 12 and 1364 00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,550 it fell august 15th , correct ? And 1365 00:50:31,550 --> 00:50:33,840 they got out uh august 16th and then we 1366 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,170 have a attack on our troops a couple 1367 00:50:36,170 --> 00:50:38,500 weeks later . Can any of you guarantee 1368 00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:40,920 the american people that are those 5000 1369 00:50:40,930 --> 00:50:43,100 bad guys scumbags ? None of them were 1370 00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:45,156 directly responsible for killing our 1371 00:50:45,156 --> 00:50:47,650 troops cannot guarantee that . Okay , 1372 00:50:47,660 --> 00:50:49,827 thank you . Mr Chairman of your back . 1373 00:50:49,827 --> 00:50:52,160 Thank you . Mr Horse breeders recommend . 1374 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,327 Thank you . Mr Chairman , thank you Mr 1375 00:50:54,327 --> 00:50:56,549 Secretary and to the generals . I'll be 1376 00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:58,604 brief . I have several questions and 1377 00:50:58,604 --> 00:51:00,549 appreciate your concise response . 1378 00:51:00,549 --> 00:51:02,920 General Mackenzie on August 30 , you 1379 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,087 told the media that while you maintain 1380 00:51:05,087 --> 00:51:07,253 the ability to bring American citizens 1381 00:51:07,253 --> 00:51:09,570 and civilians out until immediately 1382 00:51:09,570 --> 00:51:11,530 before the departure of the final 1383 00:51:11,530 --> 00:51:13,990 flight , no civilians were on those 1384 00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:16,650 aircraft And that mission ended 1385 00:51:16,650 --> 00:51:19,390 approximately 12 hours before the exit . 1386 00:51:19,860 --> 00:51:21,850 So to clarify , when did the last 1387 00:51:21,850 --> 00:51:24,250 american citizens successfully pass 1388 00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:27,630 through taliban perimeter into 1389 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,930 hk A gate . That's a very specific 1390 00:51:30,930 --> 00:51:32,986 question . I'll have to come back to 1391 00:51:32,986 --> 00:51:35,152 you with on the record but I will come 1392 00:51:35,152 --> 00:51:37,319 back to you . Thank you . And when did 1393 00:51:37,319 --> 00:51:39,486 the last Afghan civilians successfully 1394 00:51:39,486 --> 00:51:41,652 passed through the gate . Same thing . 1395 00:51:41,652 --> 00:51:40,950 It was some hours before but I'll come 1396 00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:43,228 back to you with an exact time on that . 1397 00:51:43,228 --> 00:51:45,339 And how many individuals successfully 1398 00:51:45,339 --> 00:51:47,561 passed through the Taliban perimeter in 1399 00:51:47,561 --> 00:51:50,040 the 72 hours preceding the departure of 1400 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,030 the final flight ? Probably in the low 1401 00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:55,086 hundreds . But I'll come back to you 1402 00:51:55,086 --> 00:51:57,141 with an exact number . Thank you . I 1403 00:51:57,141 --> 00:51:59,252 understand that on august 19th ground 1404 00:51:59,252 --> 00:52:01,141 commander's authorized the use of 1405 00:52:01,141 --> 00:52:03,640 helicopters to rescue 100 and 69 1406 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,650 americans from the Barone Hotel after 1407 00:52:06,650 --> 00:52:09,070 the initial plan for them to proceed on 1408 00:52:09,070 --> 00:52:11,410 foot became too dangerous . At what 1409 00:52:11,410 --> 00:52:14,370 time were rotary wing aviation assets 1410 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,070 no longer operation at Hey Kyra , 1411 00:52:18,450 --> 00:52:20,450 so wrote first of all that , you're 1412 00:52:20,450 --> 00:52:22,450 right , the Baron Hotel , we should 1413 00:52:22,450 --> 00:52:24,561 know it's about 200 m off the h chi a 1414 00:52:24,561 --> 00:52:26,617 compound so it's not a long distance 1415 00:52:26,617 --> 00:52:28,894 but we we did use helicopters for that . 1416 00:52:28,894 --> 00:52:31,006 We kept helicopters up until the very 1417 00:52:31,006 --> 00:52:33,117 end . In fact one of the final things 1418 00:52:33,117 --> 00:52:35,283 we did before actually extracting from 1419 00:52:35,283 --> 00:52:35,030 the C seventeen's was breaking down 1420 00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:37,380 some helicopters and loading them . And 1421 00:52:37,380 --> 00:52:39,324 what were the specific contingency 1422 00:52:39,324 --> 00:52:42,320 plans to continue the evacuation if the 1423 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,170 taliban taliban closed checkpoints 1424 00:52:45,170 --> 00:52:47,570 surrounding the airport . So at all 1425 00:52:47,570 --> 00:52:49,403 times we were prepared to accept 1426 00:52:49,403 --> 00:52:51,700 american citizens uh that that they 1427 00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:53,644 were able to make it to the gate . 1428 00:52:53,644 --> 00:52:55,811 There was an external taliban cordon . 1429 00:52:55,811 --> 00:52:57,867 We've talked about that the external 1430 00:52:57,867 --> 00:53:00,089 taliban cordon was actually part of the 1431 00:53:00,089 --> 00:53:02,144 force protection scheme for the base 1432 00:53:02,144 --> 00:53:04,367 commanders on the ground had to balance 1433 00:53:04,367 --> 00:53:06,589 their force protection against the need 1434 00:53:06,589 --> 00:53:08,756 to allow americans S . I . V . S . And 1435 00:53:08,756 --> 00:53:10,867 others to enter . So we tried to work 1436 00:53:10,867 --> 00:53:13,033 closely when we could with the taliban 1437 00:53:13,033 --> 00:53:15,200 to ensure free passage for americans . 1438 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,256 I was so why then were the plans not 1439 00:53:17,256 --> 00:53:19,478 implemented ? Once it became clear that 1440 00:53:19,478 --> 00:53:21,700 no additional american citizens , we're 1441 00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:23,922 going to be allowed to pass through the 1442 00:53:23,922 --> 00:53:27,380 taliban checkpoints . We we attempted 1443 00:53:27,390 --> 00:53:29,560 with the taliban to allow americans to 1444 00:53:29,570 --> 00:53:31,792 be able to get to the gate up until the 1445 00:53:31,792 --> 00:53:34,360 very end . I do not have facts on why 1446 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,490 that did not happen . Our presence on 1447 00:53:36,490 --> 00:53:38,546 the ground and we should remember it 1448 00:53:38,546 --> 00:53:40,768 was very small and we were beginning to 1449 00:53:40,768 --> 00:53:42,823 turn inward as we prepare to extract 1450 00:53:42,823 --> 00:53:46,670 General Milley . In 2017 the G . A . 1451 00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:48,059 O . Released a report on 1452 00:53:48,059 --> 00:53:49,781 recommendations to enhance the 1453 00:53:49,781 --> 00:53:51,948 readiness of the global Response force 1454 00:53:51,948 --> 00:53:54,790 to support contingency operations . In 1455 00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:58,140 June of 2021 , G . A . O assessed that 1456 00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:00,640 the department had not implemented any 1457 00:54:00,650 --> 00:54:02,539 of their three recommendations to 1458 00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:04,810 improve readiness due to the ongoing 1459 00:54:04,810 --> 00:54:06,790 development of the dynamic force 1460 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,480 employment concept . So I'm curious 1461 00:54:09,490 --> 00:54:11,720 what percentage of the total immediate 1462 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:15,010 response force and existing preposition 1463 00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:18,270 forces deployed in support of Operation 1464 00:54:18,270 --> 00:54:21,210 Spartan Shield were deployed to HK A to 1465 00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:23,610 assist in the neo and how many 1466 00:54:23,610 --> 00:54:26,170 additional battalions intended to be 1467 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,890 and um earth follow on force were 1468 00:54:29,890 --> 00:54:32,110 available for short notice deployment 1469 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,560 but not deployed . We had an old frank 1470 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,616 and correct me 100% here in a minute 1471 00:54:37,616 --> 00:54:40,850 but we had two battalions , the mu 1472 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,060 uh and another marine battalion 1473 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:46,696 preposition in the Middle East along 1474 00:54:46,696 --> 00:54:48,473 with an army infantry battalion 1475 00:54:48,473 --> 00:54:50,529 preposition in the Middle East . And 1476 00:54:50,529 --> 00:54:50,410 there was a battalion already on the 1477 00:54:50,410 --> 00:54:54,150 ground . So that's four plus we alerted 1478 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,470 on the secretary's order marshaled and 1479 00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:59,400 deployed the earth and the G . R . F . 1480 00:54:59,410 --> 00:55:01,632 Which is a brigade of the 82nd Airborne 1481 00:55:01,632 --> 00:55:04,470 Division Very very rapidly . And we had 1482 00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:08,420 6000 troops at HK er very very 1483 00:55:08,420 --> 00:55:11,930 rapidly . Uh I think we far exceeded 1484 00:55:11,930 --> 00:55:14,152 any of the standards that are published 1485 00:55:14,152 --> 00:55:16,374 for the girl or the Earth . In addition 1486 00:55:16,374 --> 00:55:18,541 to that , we had a variety of high end 1487 00:55:18,541 --> 00:55:20,708 special operations forces that alerted 1488 00:55:20,708 --> 00:55:22,819 marshall and deployed extraordinarily 1489 00:55:22,819 --> 00:55:25,590 rapidly . So we easily met any kind of 1490 00:55:25,590 --> 00:55:27,479 rapid deployment standards and we 1491 00:55:27,479 --> 00:55:29,701 exceeded them . Thank you gentlemen for 1492 00:55:29,701 --> 00:55:32,250 your service to our military men and 1493 00:55:32,250 --> 00:55:34,590 women and to our veterans who have 1494 00:55:34,590 --> 00:55:37,290 served over the 20 years during this , 1495 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,000 the longest war in history U . S . 1496 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,167 History . Thank you mr Chairman . I'll 1497 00:55:42,167 --> 00:55:44,111 yield back thank you and thank you 1498 00:55:44,111 --> 00:55:46,470 gentlemen for for your testimony today . 1499 00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:48,137 And I know certainly it was a 1500 00:55:48,137 --> 00:55:50,040 contentious hearing but it is 1501 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,151 enormously important that we have the 1502 00:55:52,151 --> 00:55:54,484 opportunity to have these conversations . 1503 00:55:54,484 --> 00:55:56,707 I do not in any way support some of the 1504 00:55:56,707 --> 00:55:58,929 comments and some of my colleagues made 1505 00:55:58,929 --> 00:56:00,762 or the way they chose to conduct 1506 00:56:00,762 --> 00:56:02,929 themselves . But that is a small price 1507 00:56:02,929 --> 00:56:04,929 to pay for the transparency that we 1508 00:56:04,929 --> 00:56:06,984 need um to allow the committee to do 1509 00:56:06,984 --> 00:56:08,984 its job . Um I appreciate you being 1510 00:56:08,984 --> 00:56:11,040 willing to do that and giving us the 1511 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,262 opportunity to have this discussion and 1512 00:56:13,262 --> 00:56:12,830 we will certainly continue to discuss 1513 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,090 um this situation in South Asia as we 1514 00:56:15,090 --> 00:56:17,750 go forward , appreciate your testimony , 1515 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:19,871 mister Rogers , anything for the good 1516 00:56:19,871 --> 00:56:21,927 of the order . You Mr Chairman . The 1517 00:56:21,927 --> 00:56:24,038 one thing I would like to ask is that 1518 00:56:24,038 --> 00:56:26,093 as soon as practical that we do have 1519 00:56:26,093 --> 00:56:28,260 the classified hearing on the over the 1520 00:56:28,260 --> 00:56:30,640 horizon capabilities causes I've spoken 1521 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,696 individually with all three of these 1522 00:56:32,696 --> 00:56:34,751 gentlemen , I'm very concerned about 1523 00:56:34,751 --> 00:56:36,862 our counterterrorism capabilities and 1524 00:56:36,862 --> 00:56:38,918 how we're going to address that . We 1525 00:56:38,918 --> 00:56:41,084 will have multiple classified hearings 1526 00:56:41,084 --> 00:56:40,680 on that subject . Is that that's going 1527 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,791 to be an ongoing topic . But yes , it 1528 00:56:42,791 --> 00:56:44,958 is something we need to do . Um Soon . 1529 00:56:44,958 --> 00:56:45,970 Thank you again . We are adjourned .